Valves

Author
Discussion

LukeR94

Original Poster:

2,218 posts

142 months

Monday 20th January 2014
quotequote all
Talk to me?

Why does 4vpc(Valves per cylinder) have more benefit than say 2vpc, and 6vpc?

For the sake of arguments lets leave VVT engines of this.

Say you are running a solid cam profile with no VVT, what are the benefits of using 4vpc over 2vpc, and why are some engines 5vpc if 4vpc is the most efficient(by that I mean in terms of area, and not MPG etc).



Alex

9,975 posts

285 months

Monday 20th January 2014
quotequote all
Airflow is determined by the total circumference of the valves. More valves = larger total circumference = more airflow = more power.

ManOpener

12,467 posts

170 months

Monday 20th January 2014
quotequote all
I think it has something to do with being able to have valves covering the largest possible surface area and therefore the highest efficiency for any given size? Sure someone with more of a clue will explain this in a proper way.

Like the gent above.

Of course there's a trade-off with additional complexity which is why you don't really see 5+ valves per cylinder apart from in some exceptional cases.

LuS1fer

41,154 posts

246 months

Monday 20th January 2014
quotequote all
Big valves bounce due to their size and weight. Valve bounce used to be very common in old 8v engines.
Smaller valves allow the engine to rev higher and give a more efficient and greater surface area to put fuel in and remove exchaust gases.

DocArbathnot

27,072 posts

184 months

Monday 20th January 2014
quotequote all
ManOpener said:
I think it has something to do with being able to have valves covering the largest possible surface area and therefore the highest efficiency for any given size? Sure someone with more of a clue will explain this in a proper way.

Like the gent above.

Of course there's a trade-off with additional complexity which is why you don't really see 5+ valves per cylinder apart from in some exceptional cases.
VAG have used long stroke 5v engines 3 inlet 2 exhaust.

Krikkit

26,564 posts

182 months

Monday 20th January 2014
quotequote all
As above, you want to fill the biggest area of the combustion chamber with valve as possible to get the gasses in and out, but keep valve weight low to avoid bounce etc. Compare the valve areas of this 8v with the 16v below, there's more covered, and you don't need big piston notches:



McWigglebum4th

32,414 posts

205 months

Monday 20th January 2014
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Just to confuse you

The most powerful piston engine in the world is one valve per cylinder

XJ Flyer

5,526 posts

131 months

Monday 20th January 2014
quotequote all
It's a bit like the pushrod v OHC argument.There might be some arguable benefits in terms of breathing and valve train inertia issues but those benefits probably don't outweigh the drawbacks in terms of the extra complication and costs.

Kev T360

366 posts

152 months

Monday 20th January 2014
quotequote all
I asume that one pair of valves will open and close together, as in both inlet valves on cylinder 1 will open and close at the same time as each other, or am I mistaken?

HustleRussell

24,753 posts

161 months

Monday 20th January 2014
quotequote all
Kev T360 said:
I asume that one pair of valves will open and close together, as in both inlet valves on cylinder 1 will open and close at the same time as each other, or am I mistaken?
Affirmative.

mrtwisty

3,057 posts

166 months

Monday 20th January 2014
quotequote all
Max will be along shortly to teach us a few things I expect :-) Every day is school day here

ManOpener

12,467 posts

170 months

Monday 20th January 2014
quotequote all
DocArbathnot said:
ManOpener said:
I think it has something to do with being able to have valves covering the largest possible surface area and therefore the highest efficiency for any given size? Sure someone with more of a clue will explain this in a proper way.

Like the gent above.

Of course there's a trade-off with additional complexity which is why you don't really see 5+ valves per cylinder apart from in some exceptional cases.
VAG have used long stroke 5v engines 3 inlet 2 exhaust.
I know, and some of them are fairly ubiquitous but as a general trend in engine design I think they're fairly uncommon. Aren't they?

LukeR94

Original Poster:

2,218 posts

142 months

Monday 20th January 2014
quotequote all
Thanks everyone, It is as I expected, mainly due to the surface area of the valves.

The valve bounce thing however I did not know!

Thanks again, everytime, PH has the answer.


Alex

9,975 posts

285 months

Monday 20th January 2014
quotequote all
Kev T360 said:
I asume that one pair of valves will open and close together, as in both inlet valves on cylinder 1 will open and close at the same time as each other, or am I mistaken?
In some engines, the valves open slightly one after the other to create swirl.

Alex

9,975 posts

285 months

Monday 20th January 2014
quotequote all
LukeR94 said:
Thanks everyone, It is as I expected, mainly due to the surface area of the valves.
It is specifically valve circumference that is important.

Locknut

653 posts

138 months

Monday 20th January 2014
quotequote all
No one has mentioned the advantage of having the spark plug located centrally over the piston. This allows the flame front to spread evenly in all directions and give smoother more efficient burning. In older designs with the plug on one side, the fuel furthest from the plug could actually detonate before it was ignited. This was caused by the rapidly increasing pressure from the burning fuel near the spark plug. In other cases it might not burn completely and raise emissions.

LuS1fer

41,154 posts

246 months

Monday 20th January 2014
quotequote all
Locknut said:
No one has mentioned the advantage of having the spark plug located centrally over the piston. This allows the flame front to spread evenly in all directions and give smoother more efficient burning. In older designs with the plug on one side, the fuel furthest from the plug could actually detonate before it was ignited. This was caused by the rapidly increasing pressure from the burning fuel near the spark plug. In other cases it might not burn completely and raise emissions.
This is true hence old Triumphs had two spark plugs per cylinder, long before Alfa did.