Bullet bitten, GT3 is up for sale, looking at Caterhams...

Bullet bitten, GT3 is up for sale, looking at Caterhams...

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Discussion

Mario149

Original Poster:

7,750 posts

177 months

Saturday 29th August 2015
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....specifically R500s, 620Rs and 260 CSRs. My GT3 is a thing of beauty on track, but after rides in an R500 and R400 at Bedford the other week I've decided I've got to partake of the rocket-powered go kart feeling smile I swear I knew almost as much of what the car was doing, grip levels/limits etc as the drivers did. Was deeply impressive.

I'm off to have a chat with the Caterham South dealer tomorrow, but current thinking is that I'd rather have an H-pattern box over a sequential, and a wider chassis wouldn't go amiss as it was rather snug in the R500/400 as I have rather wide shoulders. Neither are deal breakers (yet) but they are pointing me in the direction of the CSR.

Can any owners/drivers of these cars give any input/advice? Car would def only be a sunny day / track day car, so practicality is not a massive issue. That said, I am ruling out Atoms as some storage space and weather protection would be useful if I wanted to do a Euro hoon.

Thoughts/suggestions etc welcome.

clumsen

125 posts

199 months

Saturday 29th August 2015
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Give Callum at Sevems and Classics a call they are only at Brands Hatch.

http://www.sevensandclassics.com

Im on my 2nd caterham from him and he knows his stuff.

BertBert

18,953 posts

210 months

Saturday 29th August 2015
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hehe, I bought my GT3 as a grown up Caterham!

Mitch911

227 posts

168 months

Sunday 30th August 2015
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Another Caterham and GT3 fan here. Give PT Sports Cars a call if you are looking for a car

Mario149

Original Poster:

7,750 posts

177 months

Sunday 30th August 2015
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Had some interesting discussions at the Caterham dealer in Crawley this afternoon, very productive in narrowing down what I'm after, at least on paper.

Has anyone here test driven both a CSR and 620R? Interested to know your thoughts on how the engine delivers (forget gearboxes, absolute performance etc for the moment). My R500 friend said that some people aren't massive fans of the supercharging as it makes the engine very strong everywhere and you lose the top end "sweet spot". Anyone found this? I always assumed that adding the supercharger to the 2 litre unit just added ~20% torque everywhere so the essential character remained broadly the same?

curley

432 posts

218 months

Sunday 30th August 2015
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Well i have a 620R and have had an R400 and GT3 997.2 in the recent past so possibly qualified to comment .

The GT3 is a cruiser compared to the higher spec Caterhams , I had mine 5 years and never felt inclined to track it in favour of taking the Caterham . The latter is far more direct and involving .

The 620R is linear with the supercharger but i see that as a good thing , no waiting for the revs to build , great pull out of corners , puts on speed in a ballistic way yet never un driveable like some other high power sevens seem to be .

I have a friend with a 260 CSR and the 620R is definately quicker on track ( he has decided to upgrade and has ordered one ) especially where the straights are longer ( Brands GP , Silverstone and the like ) The CSR offers a more compliant ride and arguably is better from that point of view on the road .

Edited by curley on Sunday 30th August 21:53

curley

432 posts

218 months

Sunday 30th August 2015
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PS
if you definitely don't want the sequential that rules the 620R out ( for the present .........................rumour has it there will be a 620S at some stage) , if you are looking at R500 or CSR then you are looking at second hand , with a fairly significant price difference .

PPS
The Sadev gearbox in the 620R is streets ahead in refinement compared with the earlier Quaife boxes found in some of the earlier R500s , just make sure that you compare apples with apples .

Mario149

Original Poster:

7,750 posts

177 months

Monday 31st August 2015
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Interesting info curley, thanks.

Reference the 620R being faster on circuit, ignoring lap times, does it *feel* a lot faster than the CSR? Or is it simply that when you check the vbox / look down at the speedo on the straights you see the difference?

Also, I've been told that a 620R with a side exit exhaust won't pass noise testing on tracks (especially bedford where I go most), is this your experience? Is it the same with the CSR or does that get through?

jonnyleroux

1,511 posts

259 months

Monday 31st August 2015
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620R comes with the rear-exit twin silencer system as standard now, so no noise issues there at all. Ours has been to Combe, Bedford, Goodwood, Brands, Donington etc with no noise issues.

The CSR in comparision will almost definitely have noise issues at half of the above circuits in standard trim.

Jonny
BaT

curley

432 posts

218 months

Monday 31st August 2015
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I haven't driven a CSR on track so cannot comment but suspect the IRS on that makes it feel more composed , less raw than a standard S3 regardless of engine .

I sold my side exhaust that came with the early 620 cars and only use the rear box set up I was subsequently supplied , NEVER had a noise issue with it .

At Brands GP day last month losts of lesser cars with side exits had issues. and were repacking exhausts etc etc . My friend with the CSR was sent home ! Even Caterhams 270 demo car had to have a rear exit fitted !

James.S

585 posts

211 months

Tuesday 1st September 2015
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I have had all of the above in various guises.

The supercharged overpowers the S3 chassis. Did a lot of laps round the Ring and ended up becoming frustrated with the car. It has tons of wow appeal though. Sadev is great on circuit, although standard box is better on the road. The D300 is about the most rewarding car I have ever driven on a circuit, a great all rounder and the only caterham I regret parting with.a great place to start imo.

The CSR chassis is better suited to bigger power, mine had the Cossie 280 upgrade. people think it's a GT but it was designed as a racer and is better on circuit. If you want the ultimate caterham track weapon it would be a supercharged race CSR. Luke Stevens at Leos Motorsport will build you one. Doubt a 620 would keep up all thing equal.

Good luck.

Mario149

Original Poster:

7,750 posts

177 months

Wednesday 2nd September 2015
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Thanks for the info everyone, keep it coming smile

I'm booked in for test drives in a couple of weeks in the CSR and 620R, also doing an Exige V6 Cup to cover all bases. Truth be told the 620R is probably too much power 95% of the time, but then again, when you're spending this much money on a toy, it seems a shame to not go the "full mental" if you can hehe

Other things to consider (happy for people to correct) is that while officially a CSR might have ~450bhp/tonne and the 620R ~560bhp/tonne, in reality it's a lot less once you put a person in it, especially if that person is me at 105kg (or more on a good day :P ). That brings the figures down to ~380 and ~470 bhp/tonne respectively - the CSR has 25% less "go" than the 620R.

That said, do you even notice the difference unless on a straight at high speed? i.e. in the 620 do you reach the limits of traction below say 100mph before you can apply full throttle? In which case, the CSR is probably fine.

Other thoughts are that while the modular dash on the CSR looked nice to me initially, the simplicity of the carbon dashboard on the 620 (and especially R500) appeal more. Can you get that on CSRs? Can't seem to find any non-500/620 dashboard pics without the plastic switches. I know they're supposed to be purely functional etc, but they look really pants to my eye frown

fergus

6,430 posts

274 months

Wednesday 2nd September 2015
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Mario149 said:
Other thoughts are that while the modular dash on the CSR looked nice to me initially, the simplicity of the carbon dashboard on the 620 (and especially R500) appeal more. Can you get that on CSRs? Can't seem to find any non-500/620 dashboard pics without the plastic switches. I know they're supposed to be purely functional etc, but they look really pants to my eye frown
It's a fairly trivial job to replace the dash panel and fit it with an instrument cluster/switches of your choice. The revised AIM MXL with GPS & data logger built in is a nice bit of kit. I've got the older MXL in my SLR and it's very easy to use.

I would have thought that if buying the car new, you could negotiate/specify what you want from the outset.

Mario149

Original Poster:

7,750 posts

177 months

Wednesday 2nd September 2015
quotequote all
fergus said:
I would have thought that if buying the car new, you could negotiate/specify what you want from the outset.
From my conversations so far, they are being very helpful. I've inquired about several potential non-standard/optional specifications, costs look like they would likely be fair, it's just an issue of when the car could be delivered. Although that said it's very early days yet.

GreigM

6,726 posts

248 months

Wednesday 2nd September 2015
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Mario149 said:
That said, do you even notice the difference unless on a straight at high speed? i.e. in the 620 do you reach the limits of traction below say 100mph before you can apply full throttle? In which case, the CSR is probably fine.
I've had no problem applying full throttle in all gears in the 620R, the delivery is very linear so no torque "cliffs" which would break traction. As with all cars of all power levels you soon get used to the power and I find myself wanting more.

petery

357 posts

209 months

Wednesday 2nd September 2015
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having driven most caterham models i'd be looking at a CSR it really is a step on in terms of chassis composure compared to an S3 once you start putting big power in them.

A CSR 260 is going to leave pretty much everything round a track and you'd never get near its limits on the road. A CSR wit the 620R engine in might be best of both worlds.....

If you want the car to work properly getting a proper setup from a race team will make a huge difference

jeffw

845 posts

227 months

Wednesday 2nd September 2015
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GreigM said:
I've had no problem applying full throttle in all gears in the 620R, the delivery is very linear so no torque "cliffs" which would break traction. As with all cars of all power levels you soon get used to the power and I find myself wanting more.
Yeah, I know how you feel wink

James.S

585 posts

211 months

Wednesday 2nd September 2015
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Agree with Peter on the setup whichever way to ou go.

Couple of points, the CSR modular dash can't be removed, it is part of the chassis, however if you can locate a super light CSR they had a carbon straight dash and some other goodies. A race version is even better running on 13's

Whichever you choose, They are all very good cars...

Mario149

Original Poster:

7,750 posts

177 months

Wednesday 2nd September 2015
quotequote all
James.S said:
Couple of points, the CSR modular dash can't be removed
Given that the modular dash is an option (http://uk.caterhamcars.com//sites/default/files/content/csr_pricelist_v4.pdf),
what do you get if you don't spec it and the straight dash dos not fit?!

James.S

585 posts

211 months

Wednesday 2nd September 2015
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When you spec the car the standard dash was the classic straight one. The modular was an option that most people chose, although I prefer the old look. As I said the sunlight version has a carbon classic style dash.

If you fancy a schlep through CC recent history I believe their were a couple of road cars made with the supercharged dura tech, these like mine had better internals and made around 330. Mic Attree is the man to give you accurate details. Alternatively Luke Stevens has built several very trick CSR's with all the toys and pushing 400.

j