Are modern cars really faster than old ones?
Discussion
EDIT: It would seem this question is far too complex for many on here to be able to answer. If you are one of those, please don't bother replying with something that answers a different question. It's not worth it. If however you have an IQ greater than that of a boiled potato (or Baldrick), then you'll be able to grasp the question easily enough.
Lap times seem such an important thing for many a hot modern car. And I know many modern cars are extremely clever with lots of electronic aides, be it FWD or full blown 4wd models with electronic diffs, anti yaw control, electronic brake distribution and so on.
Tyres have also changed, better compounds and tread patterns, although mostly bigger sizes. Similar is true with brakes and braking ability.
But modern cars are often fatter and heavier, despite the power hikes many have. And they still have to adhere to the same laws of physics.
So it got me thinking, are they really faster on a track/road course/tarmac rally hill sprint type of thing than older counter parts? Maybe not the exact same models, just older performance cars vs newer ones.
Marketing departments would certainly have us believe they are. But is it true? Or is it just the modern tyres and increased HP that make it so?
For example.
Ok the older car has a slight power advantage. But would it still win on a hot lap? They have similar power, weight and power to weight. But the BRZ is likely a more focused car. And on a dry track the AWD will give no advantage.
Not direct modern alternatives, but similar cars none the less. And with surprisingly similar power to weight ratios.
To keep it fair, we should allow both cars to run the same tyre, even if the older car didn't come on such tyres. But it's pretty easy to fit new tyres to an older car. Same with a pad/fluid/disc upgrade.
There must be loads of other comparisons, old hot hatches vs newer ones. Sports car, maybe even supercars.
Lap times seem such an important thing for many a hot modern car. And I know many modern cars are extremely clever with lots of electronic aides, be it FWD or full blown 4wd models with electronic diffs, anti yaw control, electronic brake distribution and so on.
Tyres have also changed, better compounds and tread patterns, although mostly bigger sizes. Similar is true with brakes and braking ability.
But modern cars are often fatter and heavier, despite the power hikes many have. And they still have to adhere to the same laws of physics.
So it got me thinking, are they really faster on a track/road course/tarmac rally hill sprint type of thing than older counter parts? Maybe not the exact same models, just older performance cars vs newer ones.
Marketing departments would certainly have us believe they are. But is it true? Or is it just the modern tyres and increased HP that make it so?
For example.
| Subaru Impreza Turbo RB5 | 215bhp | 1235kg | 174bhp/tonne |
| Subaru BRZ | 197bhp | 1253kg | 157bhp/tonne |
Ok the older car has a slight power advantage. But would it still win on a hot lap? They have similar power, weight and power to weight. But the BRZ is likely a more focused car. And on a dry track the AWD will give no advantage.
| 2002 Focus RS MK1 | 212bhp | 1278kg | 166bhp/tonne |
| 2014 Focus ST MK3 | 252bhp | 1462kg | 172bhp/tonne |
Not direct modern alternatives, but similar cars none the less. And with surprisingly similar power to weight ratios.
To keep it fair, we should allow both cars to run the same tyre, even if the older car didn't come on such tyres. But it's pretty easy to fit new tyres to an older car. Same with a pad/fluid/disc upgrade.
There must be loads of other comparisons, old hot hatches vs newer ones. Sports car, maybe even supercars.
Edited by 300bhp/ton on Thursday 3rd September 14:41
How do you decide which cars to put against each other? You've got scooby turbo rally rep thing vs modern coupe thing. Surely the more obvious comparison is old vs new of the same car?
Focus RS v Focus ST? What about the new Focus RS?
And my answer would be yes - 9/10 times the modern car would be faster.
Focus RS v Focus ST? What about the new Focus RS?
And my answer would be yes - 9/10 times the modern car would be faster.
simple answer: YES.
The OEMs spend millions of ££ and millions of man hrs engineering their new models. Unless market forces result in the particular model being differently placed, then the new car is always faster than the old one!
Plenty of mags have done lap compares on the whole series of Golf Gti's for example, and each new one laps faster than the previous one.
The OEMs spend millions of ££ and millions of man hrs engineering their new models. Unless market forces result in the particular model being differently placed, then the new car is always faster than the old one!
Plenty of mags have done lap compares on the whole series of Golf Gti's for example, and each new one laps faster than the previous one.
I'm not sure the BRZ vs Impreza comparison is fair.
How about a new Impreza WRX
Subaru WRX STI 300bhp 1509 198bhp/tonne
Anyway, in answer to the question I think newer cars may be only slightly faster. Not by much due to all the safety features (bloat).
I'd like to see:
Cavalier turbo vs Vectra VXR.
Sierra cosworth vs Mondeo 2.0 ecoboost! (WTF?)
Renault 5 turbo vs Clio 2.0
How about a new Impreza WRX
Subaru WRX STI 300bhp 1509 198bhp/tonne
Anyway, in answer to the question I think newer cars may be only slightly faster. Not by much due to all the safety features (bloat).
I'd like to see:
Cavalier turbo vs Vectra VXR.
Sierra cosworth vs Mondeo 2.0 ecoboost! (WTF?)
Renault 5 turbo vs Clio 2.0
Some Gump said:
How do you decide which cars to put against each other? You've got scooby turbo rally rep thing vs modern coupe thing. Surely the more obvious comparison is old vs new of the same car?
Focus RS v Focus ST? What about the new Focus RS?
And my answer would be yes - 9/10 times the modern car would be faster.
Car names don't always mean much, as the model changes position and market segment.Focus RS v Focus ST? What about the new Focus RS?
And my answer would be yes - 9/10 times the modern car would be faster.
The Focus RS and ST have very similar power to weight, so I thought it was a good mash up. And to be fair, a prospective buyer could probably buy a Mk1 RS outright, or use that at a sensible deposit on a PCP deal on a new ST. So the same person might consider either cars.
As for the Subaru's, well at the time the RB5 was one of the "drivers cars" to have that was affordable. And so is the BRZ, as they both happen to be Subaru's with similar power and weight and I thought again it was an interesting comparison.
But it could be any car from any segment really. Although if you stack the deck heavily in favour of a new car with massive amounts more power and a much higher power to weight ratio, then that's kind of missing the point. As obviously as a rule a more powerful car generally be quicker all things being fairly equal.
To that extent if I was comparing an e36 M3, I suspect something like a 335i or 135i would be a better more interesting comparison than the latest M4.
Max_Torque said:
simple answer: YES.
The OEMs spend millions of ££ and millions of man hrs engineering their new models. Unless market forces result in the particular model being differently placed, then the new car is always faster than the old one!
Plenty of mags have done lap compares on the whole series of Golf Gti's for example, and each new one laps faster than the previous one.
That is my point though. Today's Golf is not the same market segment as the MK1. So comparing a 1.6 litre compact hatch with a sizeable up market modern one sporting a 2.0 litre Turbo isn't really that interesting.The OEMs spend millions of ££ and millions of man hrs engineering their new models. Unless market forces result in the particular model being differently placed, then the new car is always faster than the old one!
Plenty of mags have done lap compares on the whole series of Golf Gti's for example, and each new one laps faster than the previous one.
In terms of market placement the up! or Polo are far closer to the Mk1 Golf.
So the question is "Is the new car faster if it isnt allowed to have more power and better tyres and brakes?". Not much on that (wholly artificial) basis. You're basically asking whether cars have got lighter and/or better in terms of suspension, where the answers are "No" and "A bit".
I think however we do it we're going to end up comparing apples and oranges. One could choose his/her modern equivalent based on the inflation adjusted cost of the car, as this would probably be a reasonable indication of its class now. I appreciate the OP's point about the name of the car not always being relevant, but I'd suggest that what GM considers a Corvette to be now is a good indication that it should be compared against the Corvette of old. Likewise, BMW's mid-size coupe from the M division in both eras is probably what should be compared, unless there's a massive inflation adjusted cost difference between the two.
Some Gump said:
You've got scooby turbo rally rep thing vs modern coupe thing.
I was about to post exactly the same thing. A new Subaru WRX would make a better point of comparison with the RB5 and even that's not really a fair one given that the RB5 was a limited-run special. A 330S/R205 type special would be "truly" fair.ORD said:
So the question is "Is the new car faster if it isnt allowed to have more power and better tyres and brakes?". Not much on that (wholly artificial) basis. You're basically asking whether cars have got lighter and/or better in terms of suspension, where the answers are "No" and "A bit".
I really didn't think it was a difficult question... my bad.Given a like for like power/weight or power to weight ratio. Which might be a similar type of car, just not the same name.
Does all the modern electric aided cars, newer design (stiffer chassis, etc) really make them faster?
Of course at the pinnacle it will. That's hardly a question.
I was just thinking more of, if you bought an older car vs buying a newer hot one. Are you really buying a slower car?
Hypothetical example.
Two mates.
One who proclaims to be a car person, but isn't. Buys themself a new Golf GTI/Ford/Vauxhall whatever.
The other who is a more genuine car guy and instead buys something they really want. Maybe a 205 GTI or a 200SX, etc etc type of thing.
They both decide to book a track day and by some fluke they are pretty equal drivers.
Is it a foregone conclusion that the new car will get a spanking?
Now new car buyers are more likely to stick with the supplied package. So it'll probably be showroom standard (to preserve the warranty and such). The older car however might have had a tweak to the engine, some better brakes and some modern performance tyres. Nothing extreme, just the easy bolt on types of things enthusiasts tend to do to older cars.
300bhp/ton said:
And to be fair, a prospective buyer could probably buy a Mk1 RS outright, or use that at a sensible deposit on a PCP deal on a new ST. So the same person might consider either cars.
Thats a completely different question to the one you asked originally.Are modern cars faster than older ones? Yes, absolutely.
Can you buy a faster car for less if you buy second hand? Of course you can.
Some cars might change segments and stuff, like the latest Golf GTI is very diffrent to the original, but a MK1 Focus RS is still directly comparable to the new one, as is the Scooby. A BR5 is in no way comparable to a BRZ. 4WD rally rep vs RWD small coupe.
300bhp/ton said:
Now new car buyers are more likely to stick with the supplied package. So it'll probably be showroom standard (to preserve the warranty and such). The older car however might have had a tweak to the engine, some better brakes and some modern performance tyres. Nothing extreme, just the easy bolt on types of things enthusiasts tend to do to older cars.
This is getting even more confusing... Your moving the goal posts all over the place to get the answer you want. Your asking if an older car that started as the same power to weight, but has had money spent on upgrades is faster than a new car that is stock? Without defining what those upgrades might be?Although, the answer is, no, probably not. Remember what happened when top gear did that...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4HNulNpymM
Edited by SteveSteveson on Thursday 3rd September 13:24
ManOpener said:
I was about to post exactly the same thing. A new Subaru WRX would make a better point of comparison with the RB5 and even that's not really a fair one given that the RB5 was a limited-run special. A 330S/R205 type special would be "truly" fair.
The RB5 wasn't that special, the only changes they had over the base model were badges, trim options and different alloys. Assume a Turbo 2000 if it makes you feel better.300bhp/ton said:
The RB5 wasn't that special
At what, 450 cars made, I'd say it was300bhp/ton said:
the only changes they had over the base model were badges, trim options and different alloys.
Not really the point, though300bhp/ton said:
Assume a Turbo 2000 if it makes you feel better.
In which case, the current WRX is significantly faster.300bhp/ton said:
I really didn't think it was a difficult question... my bad.
Given a like for like power/weight or power to weight ratio. Which might be a similar type of car, just not the same name.
Does all the modern electric aided cars, newer design (stiffer chassis, etc) really make them faster?
Of course at the pinnacle it will. That's hardly a question.
I was just thinking more of, if you bought an older car vs buying a newer hot one. Are you really buying a slower car?
Hypothetical example.
Two mates.
One who proclaims to be a car person, but isn't. Buys themself a new Golf GTI/Ford/Vauxhall whatever.
The other who is a more genuine car guy and instead buys something they really want. Maybe a 205 GTI or a 200SX, etc etc type of thing.
They both decide to book a track day and by some fluke they are pretty equal drivers.
Is it a foregone conclusion that the new car will get a spanking?
Now new car buyers are more likely to stick with the supplied package. So it'll probably be showroom standard (to preserve the warranty and such). The older car however might have had a tweak to the engine, some better brakes and some modern performance tyres. Nothing extreme, just the easy bolt on types of things enthusiasts tend to do to older cars.
So now the old car is modified, as well?! Talk about moving goalposts!Given a like for like power/weight or power to weight ratio. Which might be a similar type of car, just not the same name.
Does all the modern electric aided cars, newer design (stiffer chassis, etc) really make them faster?
Of course at the pinnacle it will. That's hardly a question.
I was just thinking more of, if you bought an older car vs buying a newer hot one. Are you really buying a slower car?
Hypothetical example.
Two mates.
One who proclaims to be a car person, but isn't. Buys themself a new Golf GTI/Ford/Vauxhall whatever.
The other who is a more genuine car guy and instead buys something they really want. Maybe a 205 GTI or a 200SX, etc etc type of thing.
They both decide to book a track day and by some fluke they are pretty equal drivers.
Is it a foregone conclusion that the new car will get a spanking?
Now new car buyers are more likely to stick with the supplied package. So it'll probably be showroom standard (to preserve the warranty and such). The older car however might have had a tweak to the engine, some better brakes and some modern performance tyres. Nothing extreme, just the easy bolt on types of things enthusiasts tend to do to older cars.
Let's take an easy example with cars most of us know a little bit about - 911s. Take the Carrera S.
The 991 is faster than the 997.2 which is (slightly) faster than the 997.1 which is faster than the 996 which is faster than the 993.
I can think of very few examples where the newer car wont be faster. Essentially, weight has gone up but power and torque have shot up and chassis improvements have been considerable.
Standard hatchbacks and saloons are way faster than they used to be, and exotics are just insane these days.
300bhp/ton said:
ManOpener said:
In which case, the current WRX is significantly faster.
Which wasn't the question was it?? FFS I might as well as the table if all you are going to do is difficult about.SteveSteveson said:
Thats a completely different question to the one you asked originally.
I think I know what question I was asking. It amazes me that it baffles so many people however. It really isn't rocket science.Hell I even gave two examples in the OP. And thus far nobody has even answered the examples.
So stop trying to change the question to suit your answer. Which is clearly what is happening.
If I wanted to know "Are newer, more powerful, faster cars quicker round a track than older, slower, less powerful ones?"
Then that's what I would have asked. But I didn't did I.
Here's the big print edition for you
If you take two cars. With similar power outputs, similar weight and thusly similar power to weight ratios.
Car 1 is older by say 15-20 years+ over car 2.
Is car 2 always going to be the faster point A to point B machine?
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