Are 1990s "performance" cars still quick?

[white_goodman]

This isn't intended to be another "fings ain't what they used to be" style thread but I'm just thinking of some of the "older" performance cars that my friends and I owned back in the day in our early 20s such as:

205/309 GTis
306 Rallye/GTi-6
Primera eGTs
Civic 1.6i-16
BMW 325is (E30)
Volvo 440 Turbo
Corrado VR6s

They all felt pretty bloody quick back in the day to be honest but the argument I hear trotted out nowadays is that none of these would see which way a modern diesel repmobile went and the relatively modest power and torque outputs would seem to support that.

Even my modern "mid-spec" Civic puts out 143bhp from its 1.8 litre petrol engine (more than a 205/309 GTi, Golf GTi 16v or Renault Clio/19 16v) but I can't say it feels that quick, whereas those cars did. Even some modern cars with 200bhp+ don't necessarily feel that quick.

So, I guess what I'm asking is, would a well-driven 205 GTi/Golf GTi 16v still be able to keep say a modern 320d "honest" cross country or would they really not see which way it went.

Are these cars really that slow by today's standards or did lighter weight, less refinement and gearing more geared towards performance rather than fuel economy and emissions "fool" us into thinking that they were a lot quicker than they were?

[delta0]

Most if not all of those would be warm by today's standard. Even the early 00s cars were much quicker.

[japaneseskoda]

My 95 MR2 Rev3 Turbo with mild mods will give most things a run for their money upto 80ish mph when it begins (literally) to take off. Seriously, off a roundabout and full on foot to the floor acceleration very little will outrun it in the legal zones.

[northwest monkey]

japaneseskoda said:

My 95 MR2 Rev3 Turbo with mild mods will give most things a run for their money upto 80ish mph when it begins (literally) to take off. Seriously, off a roundabout and full on foot to the floor acceleration very little will outrun it in the legal zones.

So not a standard car then?

Can't compare a modern standard car to a tuned one. For the sake of argument, let's assume the modern car has "mild mods".

Then what?

[ikarl]

90's performance cars;

E36 M3
200sx turbo
Mr2 turbo
300zx tt
Supra tt
3000gto
944 turbo
Impreza
Evo

Still pretty quick IMO

[northwest monkey]

ikarl said:

90's performance cars;

E36 M3
200sx turbo
Mr2 turbo
300zx tt
Supra tt
3000gto
944 turbo
Impreza
Evo

Still pretty quick IMO

It's sad that a lot of those cars have no modern equivalent. I lusted after a lot of them when I was younger!

[Jasandjules]

They are "pretty quick" but if you consider a Golf R........ The hot hatches are getting preposterously fast...

[ikarl]

If the question is, are 90s cars still quick, then I think the answer is yes. Most on my list are c.5 secs to 60 and should easily push past 140

white_goodman said:

Are these cars really that slow by today's standards or did lighter weight, less refinement and gearing more geared towards performance rather than fuel economy and emissions "fool" us into thinking that they were a lot quicker than they were?

[japaneseskoda]

northwest monkey said:

So not a standard car then?

Can't compare a modern standard car to a tuned one. For the sake of argument, let's assume the modern car has "mild mods".

Then what?

Just a decat pipe and change of air filter box. Nothing much. They were 241bhp as standard and weighed 1,275kg so still reasonable today, plus mid engine RWD lay down of power from roundabouts is an excellent way of moving the car. If modern car has mild mods too, then things may be different, but it's still very quick, 5.5 secs 0 - 60 in standard form is surely reasonable pace today?

[markcoznottz]

white_goodman said:

This isn't intended to be another "fings ain't what they used to be" style thread but I'm just thinking of some of the "older" performance cars that my friends and I owned back in the day in our early 20s such as:

205/309 GTis
306 Rallye/GTi-6
Primera eGTs
Civic 1.6i-16
BMW 325is (E30)
Volvo 440 Turbo
Corrado VR6s

They all felt pretty bloody quick back in the day to be honest but the argument I hear trotted out nowadays is that none of these would see which way a modern diesel repmobile went and the relatively modest power and torque outputs would seem to support that.

Even my modern "mid-spec" Civic puts out 143bhp from its 1.8 litre petrol engine (more than a 205/309 GTi, Golf GTi 16v or Renault Clio/19 16v) but I can't say it feels that quick, whereas those cars did. Even some modern cars with 200bhp+ don't necessarily feel that quick.

So, I guess what I'm asking is, would a well-driven 205 GTi/Golf GTi 16v still be able to keep say a modern 320d "honest" cross country or would they really not see which way it went.

Are these cars really that slow by today's standards or did lighter weight, less refinement and gearing more geared towards performance rather than fuel economy and emissions "fool" us into thinking that they were a lot quicker than they were?

205gti massive fun as well, real drivers car.

[Kawasicki]

no

[pti]

japaneseskoda said:

northwest monkey said:

So not a standard car then?

Can't compare a modern standard car to a tuned one. For the sake of argument, let's assume the modern car has "mild mods".

Then what?

Just a decat pipe and change of air filter box. Nothing much. They were 241bhp as standard and weighed 1,275kg so still reasonable today, plus mid engine RWD lay down of power from roundabouts is an excellent way of moving the car. If modern car has mild mods too, then things may be different, but it's still very quick, 5.5 secs 0 - 60 in standard form is surely reasonable pace today?

Even in standard form they're pretty brisk. Decent power to weight and low CdA would allow it to keep pace with a lot of modern stuff.

[GuinnessMK]

I think it's more about feel, handling and power to weight, rather than plain figures.

A diesel turbo rep mobile may have 140 horses, but it'll be full of air bags, dpf's, electronic driver aids and parking sensors. A 140 horse hot hatch from the 90's will weigh lots less, have sharper handling and feel quicker (IMHO).

In a traffic light grandprix the modern equivalent may win, but on a twisty backroad or track, I think you'd have more fun in a modern classic.

[Hol]

pti said:

japaneseskoda said:

northwest monkey said:

So not a standard car then?

Can't compare a modern standard car to a tuned one. For the sake of argument, let's assume the modern car has "mild mods".

Then what?

Just a decat pipe and change of air filter box. Nothing much. They were 241bhp as standard and weighed 1,275kg so still reasonable today, plus mid engine RWD lay down of power from roundabouts is an excellent way of moving the car. If modern car has mild mods too, then things may be different, but it's still very quick, 5.5 secs 0 - 60 in standard form is surely reasonable pace today?

Even in standard form they're pretty brisk. Decent power to weight and low CdA would allow it to keep pace with a lot of modern stuff.

Not many supercharged or Turbo MR2's on the UK roads until the late 90's due to only being a Japanese domestic market only vehicle. (I knew of one MK1. Supercharger that was a personal import mid 90's).

The same as the Enos 1-3, the Supra TwinTurbo, the GTO Twin & the Impreza STI 1-3 all of which we're imported in low volumes by private individuals until the yen was low enough and they were old enough to make it attractive.

4second 0-60 standard spec cars were all over the place when the grey markets did open up though. Easily enough to hold back the 2015 Golf R mentioned earlier.


So back in the 90's we had the Op's original Pick, early hot hatch turbos, loads of Escort RWD with pintos and a few special motors like HSR Chevettes, or E31 M3,s.

Edited by Hol on Sunday 13th September 19:46

[Nickyboy]

The old classics will still feel quick as they're so light. An Astra GTE for example weighs near on half a ton less than an Astra VXR, while the VXR is faster, you can't miss the feel of speed in the GTE

[Daston]

Most Caterhams and TVRs are still pretty damn fast due to low weight.

Jap Turbo stuff is also pretty quick compared to other sports cars in the same (as new) price bracket.

[GC8]

ikarl said:

90's performance cars;

E36 M3
200sx turbo
Mr2 turbo
300zx tt
Supra tt
3000gto
944 turbo
Impreza
Evo

Still pretty quick IMO

The 944 Turbo was an eighties performance car. It was pensioned off in 1991. It is a whole generation behind all of the other cars that you have listed there.

[lostkiwi]

I recently bought a 93 Mercedes 500SL. 0-60 in 6.5 and onwards to 155+.
Its enough to embarrass a lot of modern cars even now.
Took a mate for a rode and nailed it from about 40 and he was totally surprised at how rapid it was.

Cornering in it though.... that's another matter.....

[skeeterm5]

Lotus Carlton, yes it is still quick, very quick.

S

[Leins]

E34 M5 3.8 feels just a little quicker than an E92 335d, but not much