I have the answer to Honda's problem...

I have the answer to Honda's problem...

Author
Discussion

BlimeyCharlie

Original Poster:

901 posts

141 months

Monday 28th September 2015
quotequote all
The answer is as follows;

Develop new engine based on the knowledge gained from the current rubbish produced for 2015.
Cancel partnership with McLaren.
Leave the sport as Honda.
Supply much improved engines to McLaren, badged as Mugen next year.
Watch the hair of Ron Dennis grow back.
The End...

By doing this 'Engine Tokens' don't come into it.



Muzzer79

9,806 posts

186 months

Monday 28th September 2015
quotequote all
By the same token (geddit?!) they could have a 3 year old McLaren hammering around Suzuka every week testing development parts

But, in a 'gentleman's agreement', they don't.

BlimeyCharlie

Original Poster:

901 posts

141 months

Monday 28th September 2015
quotequote all
Muzzer79 said:
By the same token (geddit?!) they could have a 3 year old McLaren hammering around Suzuka every week testing development parts

But, in a 'gentleman's agreement', they don't.
Yes I agree, and I enjoyed your pun, but my understanding, based on what I've read recently, is that 'Honda' are not allowed to make the changes required to the engine due to token restrictions.


Doink

1,652 posts

146 months

Monday 28th September 2015
quotequote all
They can't go testing while its a Honda so why don't they put a mugen sticker on it and go test all they like in the 3 year old McLaren while still with McLaren as honda

BlimeyCharlie

Original Poster:

901 posts

141 months

Monday 28th September 2015
quotequote all
Doink said:
They can't go testing while its a Honda so why don't they put a mugen sticker on it and go test all they like in the 3 year old McLaren while still with McLaren as honda
Er...because Honda are not allowed to 'develop' the engine because they don't have enough tokens...
Honda know the problem, but can't fix it because of the 'rules'.

mollytherocker

14,365 posts

208 months

Monday 28th September 2015
quotequote all
BlimeyCharlie said:
Er...because Honda are not allowed to 'develop' the engine because they don't have enough tokens...
Honda know the problem, but can't fix it because of the 'rules'.
They should just threaten to leave the sport and mean it.

Bernie will then fix it.

Scuffers

20,887 posts

273 months

Tuesday 29th September 2015
quotequote all
How many times does this need to be said, it's not about tokens.

Even Ron said the same on Sunday.


Scuffers

20,887 posts

273 months

Tuesday 29th September 2015
quotequote all
Gaz. said:
While trying to find out which parts of the engine are fixed after the last event I found this: Ferrari & Honda want open development for 2016+ and Mercedes haven't shot the idea down in flames. It's up to Renault now, so they may not need any shenanigans with name plates.

Toto pretty much said this on camera, Merc will not stand in the way of letting Renault and Honda developed to catch up, even to the point of giving them some of their tech.

I suspect the sticking point will be Ferrari, as Merc will see no reason for them to get help.

ukaskew

10,642 posts

220 months

Tuesday 29th September 2015
quotequote all
Scuffers said:
How many times does this need to be said, it's not about tokens.

Even Ron said the same on Sunday.
Indeed, seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of the system (but hey, this is F1, where everything is needlessly complex), Ron explained it really well on Sunday.

scubadude

2,618 posts

196 months

Tuesday 29th September 2015
quotequote all
BlimeyCharlie said:
Honda know the problem, but can't fix it because of the 'rules'.
I wouldn't be surprised if Honda hadn't in fact fixed the issue (ie- they have new, 2016 engines crated ready to run) which is why Teflonso and Button are keen to stick around. They just have to suck it up for a few more rounds.

Remember when Mercedes took over, they where fairly dire for a season, abit better then everyone thought Hamilton was mad to switch and then eventually the "proper" Mercedes was unveiled and they've won everything since... the board at Honda will expect similar or they'll be out pronto I'd wager.

Honda and Mclaren must have gone into this year knowing they'd be also-rans, I can't believe they would have assumed they'd be in the running straight out of the box.

Scuffers

20,887 posts

273 months

Tuesday 29th September 2015
quotequote all
scubadude said:
I wouldn't be surprised if Honda hadn't in fact fixed the issue (ie- they have new, 2016 engines crated ready to run) which is why Teflonso and Button are keen to stick around. They just have to suck it up for a few more rounds.

Remember when Mercedes took over, they where fairly dire for a season, abit better then everyone thought Hamilton was mad to switch and then eventually the "proper" Mercedes was unveiled and they've won everything since... the board at Honda will expect similar or they'll be out pronto I'd wager.

Honda and Mclaren must have gone into this year knowing they'd be also-rans, I can't believe they would have assumed they'd be in the running straight out of the box.
Really?

what can possibly lead you to even consider this?

if they had a better engine, they would be using it now!

IainT

10,040 posts

237 months

Tuesday 29th September 2015
quotequote all
ukaskew said:
Scuffers said:
How many times does this need to be said, it's not about tokens.

Even Ron said the same on Sunday.
Indeed, seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of the system (but hey, this is F1, where everything is needlessly complex), Ron explained it really well on Sunday.
indeed - for those that missed the point he was making:

An engine supplier can do as much developmental work on any part of the engine at any time. They are only limited in what can be introduced to their race engines by the token system.

He went on to point out that this system does not achieve the stated aim of ensuring cost savings just complexity for F1 fans and the inability of an engine supplier to address a deficit at the season start.

DanielSan

18,747 posts

166 months

Tuesday 29th September 2015
quotequote all
Scuffers said:
How many times does this need to be said, it's not about tokens.

Even Ron said the same on Sunday.
He also said a new sponsor will be announced this week, nearly 2 years after a new sponsor was supposed to be announced... Ron has said a lot in the last 18 months and so far it's been bks. I'm not inclined to think this is any different

EskimoArapaho

5,135 posts

134 months

Wednesday 30th September 2015
quotequote all
Well the new sponsor is Chandon - some Champagne-like drink (oh, the irony).

Meanwhile, McL are doing something odd on Twitter and the live feed: http://www.mclaren.com/formula1/live/

My guess is ROn has locked himself in the media suite and is having a meltdown. Expect Ron 2.0 to emerge...

mycool

265 posts

201 months

Wednesday 30th September 2015
quotequote all
Given in the promo pics this "new" sponsor seems to be in the same place on the car as where the Johnnie Walker logo currently is, and is also a rival drinks firm, is this really an additional sponsor or just replacing a departing one?

I suspect given the position on the car determines the rate and they certainly won't have been able to raise rates the the net effect will be zero or a reduction in income?

and WTF is that twitter feed think about?

longblackcoat

5,047 posts

182 months

Wednesday 30th September 2015
quotequote all
IainT said:
He went on to point out that this system does not achieve the stated aim of ensuring cost savings just complexity for F1 fans and the inability of an engine supplier to address a deficit at the season start.
That may or may not be true, but this is what the teams signed up to. Should they have? Dunno, but the reason they have the current regs is because they all agreed to it. Renault threatened to quit the sport, remember, and Honda said they wouldn’t come in otherwise.

Why anyone thought that there could ever be cost savings utterly escapes me. The V8s were expensive, sure, but the new engines brought in entirely new technology and they had to be way more reliable due to the now-abandoned 4-engines-per-season rule. Let’s see, was that likely to be (a) cheaper or (b) utterly, ruinously, mind-fkingly-expensive.

Option (b), right? And if we could all see that at the outset, how could the manufacturers and teams not have known it?

robinessex

11,046 posts

180 months

Friday 2nd October 2015
quotequote all
Cam someone remind me wether it was Mad Max or Bernie Eccelescake who said they needed to make F1 a bit cheaper !!!!!!!!! So lets introduce turbos and lots of complicated electric stuff then. And prevent you fixing it if it dosen't work very well.

Scuffers

20,887 posts

273 months

Friday 2nd October 2015
quotequote all
robinessex said:
Cam someone remind me wether it was Mad Max or Bernie Eccelescake who said they needed to make F1 a bit cheaper !!!!!!!!! So lets introduce turbos and lots of complicated electric stuff then. And prevent you fixing it if it dosen't work very well.
it was Max that started all this push to what we have now.

Berni hates these engines, for several reasons.

It was Max that gave us 3 new teams, two of which lasted 5 mins and the 3rd has had to go to the brink several times just to survive at the back of the grid.

It was Max that started the process to stupid tyres.

Need I go on?


rscott

14,690 posts

190 months

Friday 2nd October 2015
quotequote all
Scuffers said:
robinessex said:
Cam someone remind me wether it was Mad Max or Bernie Eccelescake who said they needed to make F1 a bit cheaper !!!!!!!!! So lets introduce turbos and lots of complicated electric stuff then. And prevent you fixing it if it dosen't work very well.
it was Max that started all this push to what we have now.

Berni hates these engines, for several reasons.

It was Max that gave us 3 new teams, two of which lasted 5 mins and the 3rd has had to go to the brink several times just to survive at the back of the grid.

It was Max that started the process to stupid tyres.

Need I go on?
But it was the teams (and engine manufacturers) who developed and agreed to these engine rules.

andyps

7,817 posts

281 months

Friday 2nd October 2015
quotequote all
Gaz. said:
Unanimously too.
They did indeed but I can't recall any of the manufacturers saying it is too expensive but have heard Pat Symonds say that the engine bill for a team is lower now than it was at times in the past.

The main complaint from Renault and Honda is the lack of development ability of their poor engines, with Ferrari also being concerned about this.