England Rugby - what is needed for a successful future....
Discussion
ok then not to de-rail the RWC thread - what is the way forward for England?
I stated on the other thread that while Robshaw may not be the best #7 in English rugby he is (at this point) possibly the best captain and ambassador we've got - and unfortunately that is a huge consideration in today's game. Bomber likely has to go, Faz should be out out out, I really can't see what Catt brings to the party at this point (is he getting any input thanks to Faz?) and we really need to lose Squeaky too (he has presided over too much failure)
Who should be in the team going forward? Who should be left out? Personally I feel the "must haves" at this point are:
Brown
Watson
Ford
Care
Lawes
Launchbury
Hartley
Billy V
Morgan
Robshaw (until we get a captain)
JJ
Slade
M Tuilagi
possibles/squad/impact replacements
B Youngs
T Youngs
Cips
Foden
Marler
Mako V
Kruis
Itoje
Ashton
Wade
Coach
NOT Sir C!!!!
I stated on the other thread that while Robshaw may not be the best #7 in English rugby he is (at this point) possibly the best captain and ambassador we've got - and unfortunately that is a huge consideration in today's game. Bomber likely has to go, Faz should be out out out, I really can't see what Catt brings to the party at this point (is he getting any input thanks to Faz?) and we really need to lose Squeaky too (he has presided over too much failure)
Who should be in the team going forward? Who should be left out? Personally I feel the "must haves" at this point are:
Brown
Watson
Ford
Care
Lawes
Launchbury
Hartley
Billy V
Morgan
Robshaw (until we get a captain)
JJ
Slade
M Tuilagi
possibles/squad/impact replacements
B Youngs
T Youngs
Cips
Foden
Marler
Mako V
Kruis
Itoje
Ashton
Wade
Coach
NOT Sir C!!!!
As long as you have muppets in the RFU who think that giving a coach (who's won f
k all) a 6 year contract before a World Cup is a great idea, then we are doomed.
Doomed.
And I genuinely don't think the club system helps either. As long as there is ambiguity as to who is set to benefit from the creation and cultivation of England qualified players we will always operate at a disadvantage to those systems (NZ/Aus/SA) where everything is dedicated to the interests of the national team.
k all) a 6 year contract before a World Cup is a great idea, then we are doomed.Doomed.
And I genuinely don't think the club system helps either. As long as there is ambiguity as to who is set to benefit from the creation and cultivation of England qualified players we will always operate at a disadvantage to those systems (NZ/Aus/SA) where everything is dedicated to the interests of the national team.
el stovey said:
I don't think Lancaster should go, England are there or thereabouts they just need some consistency in selection to become a more settled side. I would possibly allow foreign based players to be selected and get rid of Rob Andrew.
the problem is that Bomber brought in Faz and sanctioned a lot of the issues we've faced and due that I suspect he should go. A while ago it was argued (by the management) that bringing in France based players would destabilise the squad and lead to resentments and yet they brought in/fast-tracked Burgess and that does seem to support the 'French issue'. I suspect that were I Burrell I'd refuse to play for England until Faz & bomber have departed. This is not to 'do down' SB - if I were offered a chance to represent my country I'd say "YES!!" even nowSet piece domination.
Foundations with proper roots.
For some unknown God forsaken loony tunes reason listened to people who have wanted to lesson the traditional strength of English rugby in order to increase a strength elsewhere. This is at the same time as the rest of world rugby has actually been strengthening their set piece play.
England lose their own line outs and regularly get pushed off scrums and penalised for poor strength and/or technique.
Enough.
Dan Cole - you can't fking scrummage at international level. Joe Marler - you can't fking scrummage at international level. Tom Youngs - you can't fking Hook at international level.
Courtney Lawes - you have turned from the most promising Lock forward that England has ever seen into a flat track bully. st or get off the pot.
Kruis - get him in. Every game he has played for England he has stepped up.
Steffan Armitage - stop fking about and find a way to make him part of the team.
Lineouts. No 2 should be your best jumper. No 4 should be your nastiest bd enforcer. No 2 is always guaranteed ball at your own line out, No 4 dominates every other fker. Tail end throws should only happen when you have an outstanding back row. AND YOUR HOOKER CAN HIT A BARN fkING DOOR!!!!!
You want to revitalise English rugby at international level? Then look above. Stop any chatter about backs. There needs to be an immediate recognition that English forward play is diminished, that our set pieces are fragile and weak. Until that is accepted, humble pie about it swallowed and the need to scrap current pre-conditions in order to rebuild then absolutely nothing else matters in what you do. England will remain weak and fragile.
Foundations with proper roots.
For some unknown God forsaken loony tunes reason listened to people who have wanted to lesson the traditional strength of English rugby in order to increase a strength elsewhere. This is at the same time as the rest of world rugby has actually been strengthening their set piece play.
England lose their own line outs and regularly get pushed off scrums and penalised for poor strength and/or technique.
Enough.
Dan Cole - you can't f
king scrummage at international level. Joe Marler - you can't fking scrummage at international level. Tom Youngs - you can't fking Hook at international level.Courtney Lawes - you have turned from the most promising Lock forward that England has ever seen into a flat track bully. s
t or get off the pot.Kruis - get him in. Every game he has played for England he has stepped up.
Steffan Armitage - stop f
king about and find a way to make him part of the team.Lineouts. No 2 should be your best jumper. No 4 should be your nastiest b
d enforcer. No 2 is always guaranteed ball at your own line out, No 4 dominates every other fker. Tail end throws should only happen when you have an outstanding back row. AND YOUR HOOKER CAN HIT A BARN fkING DOOR!!!!!You want to revitalise English rugby at international level? Then look above. Stop any chatter about backs. There needs to be an immediate recognition that English forward play is diminished, that our set pieces are fragile and weak. Until that is accepted, humble pie about it swallowed and the need to scrap current pre-conditions in order to rebuild then absolutely nothing else matters in what you do. England will remain weak and fragile.
dom9 said:
Changes in the RFU need to happen 
This. The players need work, some of the older ones need to move on, some of the younger ones need game time and yep - set pieces are bloody awful at present, but until some of the decisions are taken away from the RFU it's going to be the same old twaddle. They're like the McLaren of rugby, bags of talent and ability on paper, all the set-up behind the scenes and the end product is woeful.
dom9 said:
Changes in the RFU need to happen
Some hopes. It is, I feel, a club, run by the members for the benefit of the members.I can't see the advantages of changing players and coaches (although I'd pick Ford for the latter) if the control stays were it is, without root and branch reform.
I deal with the RFU off and on and those at the lower levels work hard, are helpful and do a lot to make club life easier (in the main). It's the mob at the top.
Consistency of selection would be my priority.
Over the last 12-18 months there have been too many changes in personnel (not injury related) that means that it is very difficult to build understanding/partnerships across the team.
I'd also only pick a hooker that can actually do what they are supposed to do at set piece time i.e. hook the ball at a scrum and throw to my own team at line out.
Over the last 12-18 months there have been too many changes in personnel (not injury related) that means that it is very difficult to build understanding/partnerships across the team.
I'd also only pick a hooker that can actually do what they are supposed to do at set piece time i.e. hook the ball at a scrum and throw to my own team at line out.
The RFU are neither here nor there. They don't affect what the coaching team imparts to the players.
The current English team problem is entirely down to what the coaches are saying and players doing.
I like Lancaster. I like his honest and plain approach. I don't like his limitations though and the main one is I don't think he trusts his instincts.
Dad Faz and Rowntree. I find this very difficult to accept BUT...chaps, you need to go. Rowntree you owe a debt of honour to all those who know what you are and where you come from to fall on your sword. To have that background and oversee the weakest English Pack in generations cannot be tolerated. Daddy Faz - you have one of the best rugby brains there has been. You were one of the best English rugby players of all time - league was a vastly vastly better/more skillful game than Union in the 90s and Faz was damn be the best - but you have failed as a coach. You haven't been able to transfer one quarter of your in are ability and vision.
I find it difficult to say the above. Faz has been a legend to me for decades. Rowntree is Tigers ABC. To disown him is to disown a part of my own rugby DNA, but these things must be acknowledged.
English rugby needs to understand it has lost its roots. It needs to apologise and understand its strengths. It needs to have a bloody long hard look at itself in the mirror, make some hard decisions and decide to never ever apologise for being English ever again. Because right now we play rugby that apologises for being English and we are pathetic.
The current English team problem is entirely down to what the coaches are saying and players doing.
I like Lancaster. I like his honest and plain approach. I don't like his limitations though and the main one is I don't think he trusts his instincts.
Dad Faz and Rowntree. I find this very difficult to accept BUT...chaps, you need to go. Rowntree you owe a debt of honour to all those who know what you are and where you come from to fall on your sword. To have that background and oversee the weakest English Pack in generations cannot be tolerated. Daddy Faz - you have one of the best rugby brains there has been. You were one of the best English rugby players of all time - league was a vastly vastly better/more skillful game than Union in the 90s and Faz was damn be the best - but you have failed as a coach. You haven't been able to transfer one quarter of your in are ability and vision.
I find it difficult to say the above. Faz has been a legend to me for decades. Rowntree is Tigers ABC. To disown him is to disown a part of my own rugby DNA, but these things must be acknowledged.
English rugby needs to understand it has lost its roots. It needs to apologise and understand its strengths. It needs to have a bloody long hard look at itself in the mirror, make some hard decisions and decide to never ever apologise for being English ever again. Because right now we play rugby that apologises for being English and we are pathetic.
DJRC said:
Set piece domination.
Foundations with proper roots.
For some unknown God forsaken loony tunes reason listened to people who have wanted to lesson the traditional strength of English rugby in order to increase a strength elsewhere. This is at the same time as the rest of world rugby has actually been strengthening their set piece play.
England lose their own line outs and regularly get pushed off scrums and penalised for poor strength and/or technique.
Enough.
Dan Cole - you can't fking scrummage at international level. Joe Marler - you can't fking scrummage at international level. Tom Youngs - you can't fking Hook at international level.
Courtney Lawes - you have turned from the most promising Lock forward that England has ever seen into a flat track bully. st or get off the pot.
Kruis - get him in. Every game he has played for England he has stepped up.
Steffan Armitage - stop fking about and find a way to make him part of the team.
Lineouts. No 2 should be your best jumper. No 4 should be your nastiest bd enforcer. No 2 is always guaranteed ball at your own line out, No 4 dominates every other fker. Tail end throws should only happen when you have an outstanding back row. AND YOUR HOOKER CAN HIT A BARN fkING DOOR!!!!!
You want to revitalise English rugby at international level? Then look above. Stop any chatter about backs. There needs to be an immediate recognition that English forward play is diminished, that our set pieces are fragile and weak. Until that is accepted, humble pie about it swallowed and the need to scrap current pre-conditions in order to rebuild then absolutely nothing else matters in what you do. England will remain weak and fragile.
Absolutely right. Foundations with proper roots.
For some unknown God forsaken loony tunes reason listened to people who have wanted to lesson the traditional strength of English rugby in order to increase a strength elsewhere. This is at the same time as the rest of world rugby has actually been strengthening their set piece play.
England lose their own line outs and regularly get pushed off scrums and penalised for poor strength and/or technique.
Enough.
Dan Cole - you can't f
king scrummage at international level. Joe Marler - you can't fking scrummage at international level. Tom Youngs - you can't fking Hook at international level.Courtney Lawes - you have turned from the most promising Lock forward that England has ever seen into a flat track bully. s
t or get off the pot.Kruis - get him in. Every game he has played for England he has stepped up.
Steffan Armitage - stop f
king about and find a way to make him part of the team.Lineouts. No 2 should be your best jumper. No 4 should be your nastiest b
d enforcer. No 2 is always guaranteed ball at your own line out, No 4 dominates every other fker. Tail end throws should only happen when you have an outstanding back row. AND YOUR HOOKER CAN HIT A BARN fkING DOOR!!!!!You want to revitalise English rugby at international level? Then look above. Stop any chatter about backs. There needs to be an immediate recognition that English forward play is diminished, that our set pieces are fragile and weak. Until that is accepted, humble pie about it swallowed and the need to scrap current pre-conditions in order to rebuild then absolutely nothing else matters in what you do. England will remain weak and fragile.
You can have the world's best backs, but with a losing pack you'll win sod all (see Australia pre-Ledesma)
Sort out the pack first then worry about the backs.
Question. Where have all England's props gone? The current lot all seem to want to be wing forwards, which is great, but only if you can do your primary job which is to shove the other guy backwards at scrum-time. This should be the ONLY selection criterion for a prop.
Jock...see my posts for the last x months. It ALL stems back to England/Lancaster wanting to open the backs up, having ball handling tight forwards who can "open" up a midfield. Marler was picked by Lancaster a while ago with everyone knowing his scrummaging wasn't up there, but his "potential" measured high for all court game. Well his scrummaging still sucks.
Cole I think his believed his hype and forgot that you have NEVER earnt your stripes in the ABC until you have retired.
Cole I think his believed his hype and forgot that you have NEVER earnt your stripes in the ABC until you have retired.
I said it on the WC thread but I've really enjoyed watching the 'smaller' countries scrum, Japan in particular.
For them, the scrum is seen as an opportunity to do something attacking. Ball in, hooked to the 8 and straight out. We do the boring, put it in at an angle as our hooker can't hook, hope we have the power to walk over the ball. Then try and win a penalty so we can kick to touch/goal. fking boring.
For them, the scrum is seen as an opportunity to do something attacking. Ball in, hooked to the 8 and straight out. We do the boring, put it in at an angle as our hooker can't hook, hope we have the power to walk over the ball. Then try and win a penalty so we can kick to touch/goal. f
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