Discussion
Can't find my thread on why my 280i refuses to start but since it "runs" on starter spray, it has to be an fuel issues (,IMHO). So I bought as CIS tester gauge kit. Next weekend we will see. And since I'll only need the thing once or twice, if anyone need to borrower it let me know. Grady
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a... Starting
There's the link to old thread if you need it.
I assume you have pressure values for system and control etc
Shout if you don't.....good luck.
There's the link to old thread if you need it.
I assume you have pressure values for system and control etc
Shout if you don't.....good luck.
Yep a low battery will not help ( a lot of testing being done)
I suspect you will not get a good result with the CIS test gauge.
Logic
We know you have fuel as you cracked a few places open, the plugs are dry and not even a cough.
That really points to insufficient pressure to open injectors.
I would not immediately make the assumption that the Fuel Dist and/or the WUR are shot. that would be an expensive assumption.
Assuming you hotwire the fuel pump for testing (much easier) you will hear the pump running, if it sounds good and if your control pressure is not constant during the test needle bouncing. I would try to by pass the accumalator (messy I know)if your accumalator is a bit clogged it will cause cavitation in the pump and fxxk the supply
Be really careful when working under the car with the fuel if you do by pass the accumalator DO NOT RUN THE PUMP while working with any lines open. The fuel runs around the commutator so sparks and remaining fumes aint good.
Grady this is just some stuff for you to think about before the weekend. not much point me posting on the Monday
BTW in your thread you said you have never heard the fuel pump. That is normal if your car has not been screwed with Pump operates initially from the starter yellow while starter is turning prior to returning the key to run position.
That's probably something worth checking. Hint; it's the same wiring run that includes the thermo time switch. So you should get continuity between therm thingy and fuel pump, and ultimately the key
ETA
Maybe pull wire off starter solenoid turn key to start position you should hear pump running.
I suspect you will not get a good result with the CIS test gauge.
Logic
We know you have fuel as you cracked a few places open, the plugs are dry and not even a cough.
That really points to insufficient pressure to open injectors.
I would not immediately make the assumption that the Fuel Dist and/or the WUR are shot. that would be an expensive assumption.
Assuming you hotwire the fuel pump for testing (much easier) you will hear the pump running, if it sounds good and if your control pressure is not constant during the test needle bouncing. I would try to by pass the accumalator (messy I know)if your accumalator is a bit clogged it will cause cavitation in the pump and fxxk the supply
Be really careful when working under the car with the fuel if you do by pass the accumalator DO NOT RUN THE PUMP while working with any lines open. The fuel runs around the commutator so sparks and remaining fumes aint good.
Grady this is just some stuff for you to think about before the weekend. not much point me posting on the Monday
BTW in your thread you said you have never heard the fuel pump. That is normal if your car has not been screwed with Pump operates initially from the starter yellow while starter is turning prior to returning the key to run position.
That's probably something worth checking. Hint; it's the same wiring run that includes the thermo time switch. So you should get continuity between therm thingy and fuel pump, and ultimately the key
ETA
Maybe pull wire off starter solenoid turn key to start position you should hear pump running.
Edited by jeff m2 on Wednesday 25th November 18:16
Some good advice there mate...I had to by-pass the accumulator on Delilah as the breather was leaking fuel which caused all sorts of problems, Mainly hot start as the accumulator holds the pressure when the ignition is turned off..I think its only for around 20 minutes so doing away with it is no great loss, Just takes a few more cranks...The 8mm..(I think) on the rear of the unit is a breather and you can check to see if fuel comes out simply by disconnecting it and cranking..There should be no fuel and if there is then the diaphragm is knackered...You can by-pass it by joining the pump feed and accumulator out hoses together with a good quality copper joiner and clips and then cap off the breather, I used a bolt and a jubilee clip for that..Cheers...Ziga
Battery - It will run down but I keep it on a 10/15 amp charger when testing and then fully charge it at 2 amps. I'll probably connect a bigger battery for the next step of testing.
Starter - Happily spins until/unless it sucks the battery down. Don't think that's the problem.
Fuel - I'll be careful - thanks for the warnings.
Pump - Such a PITA to get to so I haven't. It's something that has never been replaced (in my ownership). I know it's pumping and not making noises but no idea what kind of pressure /volume it's pushing - that's where I'm starting.
Specs - got them. Actually looked at the service manual which seem rather useful: "If all else fails, read the directions." Also I have the Bosch CIS "care and feeding" inset.
Hope to get to work on Saturday, so I may have some further info to post (or not depending on what the family is doing). Grady
Starter - Happily spins until/unless it sucks the battery down. Don't think that's the problem.
Fuel - I'll be careful - thanks for the warnings.
Pump - Such a PITA to get to so I haven't. It's something that has never been replaced (in my ownership). I know it's pumping and not making noises but no idea what kind of pressure /volume it's pushing - that's where I'm starting.
Specs - got them. Actually looked at the service manual which seem rather useful: "If all else fails, read the directions." Also I have the Bosch CIS "care and feeding" inset.
Hope to get to work on Saturday, so I may have some further info to post (or not depending on what the family is doing). Grady
It has not been a successful day.
It took much too long to change the wiper motor in my old truck and now it appears that one's battery is bad. Off to find out in a minute.
Meanwhile I hooked my new tester into the top port on the fuel valve and nothing. Also no back pressure in the system when I cracked the fitting. That's different.
Looking to bypass the cream colored engine run switch/relay to test the pump, I don't see how to replace it with a headlight relay as it's wired to a white multi-wire pigtail connector not a 4 spade fitting???
Finally is the pump 12 volt? I saw a thread that implied it might be lower voltage. I'd like to power it directly (with all the hoses in situ) and see happens. Grady
It took much too long to change the wiper motor in my old truck and now it appears that one's battery is bad. Off to find out in a minute.
Meanwhile I hooked my new tester into the top port on the fuel valve and nothing. Also no back pressure in the system when I cracked the fitting. That's different.
Looking to bypass the cream colored engine run switch/relay to test the pump, I don't see how to replace it with a headlight relay as it's wired to a white multi-wire pigtail connector not a 4 spade fitting???
Finally is the pump 12 volt? I saw a thread that implied it might be lower voltage. I'd like to power it directly (with all the hoses in situ) and see happens. Grady
Grady said:
It has not been a successful day.
It took much too long to change the wiper motor in my old truck and now it appears that one's battery is bad. Off to find out in a minute.
Meanwhile I hooked my new tester into the top port on the fuel valve and nothing. Also no back pressure in the system when I cracked the fitting. That's different.
Looking to bypass the cream colored engine run switch/relay to test the pump, I don't see how to replace it with a headlight relay as it's wired to a white multi-wire pigtail connector not a 4 spade fitting???
Finally is the pump 12 volt? I saw a thread that implied it might be lower voltage. I'd like to power it directly (with all the hoses in situ) and see happens. Grady
Yes the fuel pump is 12volts.It took much too long to change the wiper motor in my old truck and now it appears that one's battery is bad. Off to find out in a minute.
Meanwhile I hooked my new tester into the top port on the fuel valve and nothing. Also no back pressure in the system when I cracked the fitting. That's different.
Looking to bypass the cream colored engine run switch/relay to test the pump, I don't see how to replace it with a headlight relay as it's wired to a white multi-wire pigtail connector not a 4 spade fitting???
Finally is the pump 12 volt? I saw a thread that implied it might be lower voltage. I'd like to power it directly (with all the hoses in situ) and see happens. Grady
Yep hotwire, for the reason you stated "the USA one is different"
Grady, I think you have the manual, look at page 22 of the fuel injection section.
It shows you the different ways the fuel pump operates.
Initially from the start position of the key then a different wiring route once the engines runs (key in run position)
So look at the upper diagram fig 48 you will see the path of 12 volts goes from 1 (the key in start) in and out of the safety module G (but not thru it)
then to the fuel pump F . Then onto the Aux air E and WUR D and ECU H
Only consider the operation of the fuel pump with the key in the start position. Don't complicate it.
As you now read nada on the fuel gauge and cracking a banjo gave a dry result, it is becoming increasingly likely your problem is only supply. I'm not surprised you read nothing on the gauge because you lost any residual pressure when you cracked a banjo last week.
I personally would just pull the wire off the stater sol and use the key, that way you prove the wiring too. Or do both.
Edited by jeff m2 on Sunday 29th November 01:40
I jacked up the car, removed the rear wheel to get to the pump.
Test it directly off a extra battery and it sounded OK.
Unhooked the yellow starter wire.
Connected the new gauges to the line that goes to the warm-up regulator.
With the flow valve closed, I pretty quickly pressurized to 10 PSI (.6 BAR) which built to 14 PSI (.9 BAR). That's exactly w/in spec I believe.
Off, it seems to hold at about 10 PSI.
That seems to indicate the pump accumulator, though filter is OK. More testing... results to come.
Well that was too optimistic...
I checked the flow back the tank (return line) and got just some gassy smelling mist.
Also noticed there was no fuel in any of the test connections/hoses.
Unhooked the supply line at the intake side of the filter and in 15 seconds of cranking got about a tablespoon of gas.
Almost like the pump is building air pressure. So do I have gas in the tanks? Gauge says yes and I put a couple of gallons in a month ago but that the next thing to check.
Test it directly off a extra battery and it sounded OK.
Unhooked the yellow starter wire.
Connected the new gauges to the line that goes to the warm-up regulator.
With the flow valve closed, I pretty quickly pressurized to 10 PSI (.6 BAR) which built to 14 PSI (.9 BAR). That's exactly w/in spec I believe.
Off, it seems to hold at about 10 PSI.
That seems to indicate the pump accumulator, though filter is OK. More testing... results to come.
Well that was too optimistic...
I checked the flow back the tank (return line) and got just some gassy smelling mist.
Also noticed there was no fuel in any of the test connections/hoses.
Unhooked the supply line at the intake side of the filter and in 15 seconds of cranking got about a tablespoon of gas.
Almost like the pump is building air pressure. So do I have gas in the tanks? Gauge says yes and I put a couple of gallons in a month ago but that the next thing to check.
Edited by Grady on Saturday 5th December 22:07
Grady said:
I jacked up the car, removed the rear wheel to get to the pump.
Test it directly off a extra battery and it sounded OK.
Unhooked the yellow starter wire.
Connected the new gauges to the line that goes to the warm-up regulator.
With the flow valve closed, I pretty quickly pressurized to 10 PSI (.6 BAR) which built to 14 PSI (.9 BAR). That's exactly w/in spec I believe.
Off, it seems to hold at about 10 PSI.
That seems to indicate the pump accumulator, though filter is OK. More testing... results to come.
Well that was too optimistic...
I checked the flow back the tank (return line) and got just some gassy smelling mist.
Also noticed there was no fuel in any of the test connections/hoses.
Unhooked the supply line at the intake side of the filter and in 15 seconds of cranking got about a tablespoon of gas.
Almost like the pump is building air pressure. So do I have gas in the tanks? Gauge says yes and I put a couple of gallons in a month ago but that the next thing to check.
If you have no fuel in the tank you may have to re join PH under a new nameTest it directly off a extra battery and it sounded OK.
Unhooked the yellow starter wire.
Connected the new gauges to the line that goes to the warm-up regulator.
With the flow valve closed, I pretty quickly pressurized to 10 PSI (.6 BAR) which built to 14 PSI (.9 BAR). That's exactly w/in spec I believe.
Off, it seems to hold at about 10 PSI.
That seems to indicate the pump accumulator, though filter is OK. More testing... results to come.
Well that was too optimistic...
I checked the flow back the tank (return line) and got just some gassy smelling mist.
Also noticed there was no fuel in any of the test connections/hoses.
Unhooked the supply line at the intake side of the filter and in 15 seconds of cranking got about a tablespoon of gas.
Almost like the pump is building air pressure. So do I have gas in the tanks? Gauge says yes and I put a couple of gallons in a month ago but that the next thing to check.
Edited by Grady on Saturday 5th December 22:07
I think you may be mixing bars for PSI
Control and System pressures are about 50 & 70 PSI resp.
It's really best to start with a simple flow test, if you don't have the flow you aren't going to get sufficient pressure. 500ccs in 30 seconds (I think) at the pressure regulator. (don't lose the shims)
Always look on the bright side.....if it's only a supply problem there's a good chance all the costly stuff is ok.
Edited by jeff m2 on Saturday 5th December 22:53
It runs, sort of.
Battery tested good.
Tested the flow at the tank return 350 ml in 15 seconds, which would be 700 at 30 seconds which is a bit less than 1/2 of what the manual calls for (1500 cm3) if I'm doing the conversion correctly.
Tested the line pressure in several places each exactly 70 PSI. Which my phone converts to 4.8 bar which would be way high (0,6 to 1,0).
I though what the hell, let's try it. And discovered the clutch master had frozen. Tried it anyway and it caught for a second. Popped off the air filter and manually opened air plate a bit and it caught and ran, but only at high revs. Once it warmed up, it would idle roughly and then die suddenly.
The clutch is still working so I took out for a very short spin. Runs OK once rolling but it will not start (without a shot of starting fluid and then it fires right up) and it will not idle.
BTW I put 3 gallons of fresh high test in at the start of this process so this was more than a 'no gas' issue.
Grady
Battery tested good.
Tested the flow at the tank return 350 ml in 15 seconds, which would be 700 at 30 seconds which is a bit less than 1/2 of what the manual calls for (1500 cm3) if I'm doing the conversion correctly.
Tested the line pressure in several places each exactly 70 PSI. Which my phone converts to 4.8 bar which would be way high (0,6 to 1,0).
I though what the hell, let's try it. And discovered the clutch master had frozen. Tried it anyway and it caught for a second. Popped off the air filter and manually opened air plate a bit and it caught and ran, but only at high revs. Once it warmed up, it would idle roughly and then die suddenly.
The clutch is still working so I took out for a very short spin. Runs OK once rolling but it will not start (without a shot of starting fluid and then it fires right up) and it will not idle.
BTW I put 3 gallons of fresh high test in at the start of this process so this was more than a 'no gas' issue.
Grady
Edited by Grady on Sunday 6th December 22:16
Grady said:
It runs, sort of.
Battery tested good.
Tested the flow at the tank return 350 ml in 15 seconds, which would be 700 at 30 seconds which is a bit less than 1/2 of what the manual calls for (1500 cm3) if I'm doing the conversion correctly.
Tested the line pressure in several places each exactly 70 PSI. Which my phone converts to 4.8 bar which would be way high (0,6 to 1,0).
I though what the hell, let's try it. And discovered the clutch master had frozen. Tried it anyway and it caught for a second. Popped off the air filter and manually opened air plate a bit and it caught and ran, but only at high revs. Once it warmed up, it would idle roughly and then die suddenly.
The clutch is still working so I took out for a very short spin. Runs OK once rolling but it will not start (without a shot of starting fluid and then it fires right up) and it will not idle.
BTW I put 3 gallons of fresh high test in at the start of this process so this was more than a 'no gas' issue.
Grady
Your 700ccs in 30secs is good, (I think you got the 1500cc figure from the size of the measuring jug)Battery tested good.
Tested the flow at the tank return 350 ml in 15 seconds, which would be 700 at 30 seconds which is a bit less than 1/2 of what the manual calls for (1500 cm3) if I'm doing the conversion correctly.
Tested the line pressure in several places each exactly 70 PSI. Which my phone converts to 4.8 bar which would be way high (0,6 to 1,0).
I though what the hell, let's try it. And discovered the clutch master had frozen. Tried it anyway and it caught for a second. Popped off the air filter and manually opened air plate a bit and it caught and ran, but only at high revs. Once it warmed up, it would idle roughly and then die suddenly.
The clutch is still working so I took out for a very short spin. Runs OK once rolling but it will not start (without a shot of starting fluid and then it fires right up) and it will not idle.
BTW I put 3 gallons of fresh high test in at the start of this process so this was more than a 'no gas' issue.
Grady
Edited by Grady on Sunday 6th December 22:16
70 psi is not way too high, it is correct, manual says 73.7 =/- 6. you are spot on. (yep, got the manual out
)First I would pull the two hoses off the Aux Air Device and make sure it is open, spray in some carb cleaner if it gunged up and stuck. you may need to take it off to get it to operate properly, not difficult.
Check the spray from the cold start injector. Should spray when cold while starter is turning (operates from thermotime switch).
Maybe temporarily open up the by pass idle screw, the big one located below the butterfly, that will help lift the plate.
I would also give it a good dose of a fuel cleaner like techron in the tank double the recommended maint dose..
I removed, tested, cleaned, lubed and replaced and it promptly started and ran just fine thank you.
I never got the cold start injector to fire on the loom but when I hot wired it, it sprayed nicely.
The "no idle" problem was fixed by screwing in the stop about 3-4 turns. It was tightly locked so something else must have upset it.
Clutch master is working for now. And the brakes have quieted down although the rotor on the driver's side in hotter that the other (not smoking, just hotter) so that side may be sticking a bit. Bill does have caliper at $130 each. CARid.com doesn't anymore.
Thanks for all the help. Grady
I never got the cold start injector to fire on the loom but when I hot wired it, it sprayed nicely.
The "no idle" problem was fixed by screwing in the stop about 3-4 turns. It was tightly locked so something else must have upset it.
Clutch master is working for now. And the brakes have quieted down although the rotor on the driver's side in hotter that the other (not smoking, just hotter) so that side may be sticking a bit. Bill does have caliper at $130 each. CARid.com doesn't anymore.
Thanks for all the help. Grady
Edited by Grady on Monday 14th December 13:17
Thats good news mate...I remember when i first drove Delilah and i thought i was in a Laurel & Hardy film, Especially screeching round a roundabout at about 10mph...It felt like the whole car was going to fall apart when i stopped...Strangely enough after a few more days of driving her everything started to go back to normal and she stopped rattling and squeaking... TVR's don't you just love em...Ziga
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