Urban clearway on private land and over-zealous enforcement?
Discussion
The 'private land' is a University - proper road, bus-stops, car parks, standard Highway Code markings/signage. And they've recently erected clearway signs to improve traffic flow through campus.
Anyway, I dropped the wife off opposite the Uni buildings to run a very short errand, and was approached by a dayglo jobsworth who told me I couldn't stop there. Pretty much ignored him and drove on - been stopped for 15sec. Hadn't spotted the signage at this point.
Drove down the road, spun it slowly around in the entrance to a side road (being patient and waiting for students to cross the side-road first and then another try not to fall off his bike once I was fully in the side road). Turn around to talk to my lad, then look in door mirror to wait for traffic. THEN look forwards, spot the jobsworth looking at my car and typing stuff into his pad, THEN spot the Clearway signs. Probably stationary for a minute or so here, including waiting for a cyclist, talking to my lad and waiting for traffic.
So I drive forward, pull in next to him and wind my window down, ask if everything is OK, get a smirked "yeah", and a lecture about how it's a clearway and I can't stop. Point out that "Clearway" is not about stopping and get told that it's private land, they can make the rules, and by entering I consent to abide by their rules. Conversation goes downhill from here, and he tells me that he'll be ticketing me. At which point I realised it was pointless to argue with an idiot and I drove off, spinning around at the entrance roundabout and then stopping briefly to pick the wife up again.
...so I just wanted to find out what I'm possibly going to be ticketed for.
- Can clearway restrictions be "no stopping"?
- Is being stationary at the entrance to the side-road enough for him to play big-man-on-campus?
Anyway, I dropped the wife off opposite the Uni buildings to run a very short errand, and was approached by a dayglo jobsworth who told me I couldn't stop there. Pretty much ignored him and drove on - been stopped for 15sec. Hadn't spotted the signage at this point.
Drove down the road, spun it slowly around in the entrance to a side road (being patient and waiting for students to cross the side-road first and then another try not to fall off his bike once I was fully in the side road). Turn around to talk to my lad, then look in door mirror to wait for traffic. THEN look forwards, spot the jobsworth looking at my car and typing stuff into his pad, THEN spot the Clearway signs. Probably stationary for a minute or so here, including waiting for a cyclist, talking to my lad and waiting for traffic.
So I drive forward, pull in next to him and wind my window down, ask if everything is OK, get a smirked "yeah", and a lecture about how it's a clearway and I can't stop. Point out that "Clearway" is not about stopping and get told that it's private land, they can make the rules, and by entering I consent to abide by their rules. Conversation goes downhill from here, and he tells me that he'll be ticketing me. At which point I realised it was pointless to argue with an idiot and I drove off, spinning around at the entrance roundabout and then stopping briefly to pick the wife up again.
...so I just wanted to find out what I'm possibly going to be ticketed for.
- Can clearway restrictions be "no stopping"?
- Is being stationary at the entrance to the side-road enough for him to play big-man-on-campus?
Per the highway code stopping is permitted for brief periods, such as to drop-off / pick-up passengers. Waiting is not permitted, nor is loading/unloading.
I suspect Mr Chip-on-shoulder had the same view as you, hence our argument this afternoon. I'm a little concerned that it'll escalate into a ticket for (possibly) no valid reason and I'll end up having to fight it.
...what I'd like is to know more details, e.g. case-law, to know whether I am facing a valid ticket for a stupid, letter-of-the-law reason, or whether I've a genuine defence...
I suspect Mr Chip-on-shoulder had the same view as you, hence our argument this afternoon. I'm a little concerned that it'll escalate into a ticket for (possibly) no valid reason and I'll end up having to fight it.
...what I'd like is to know more details, e.g. case-law, to know whether I am facing a valid ticket for a stupid, letter-of-the-law reason, or whether I've a genuine defence...
Surely the uni can impose parking rules/ payment systems and even fines by putting up signage to the effect that by entering you accept the terms of the 'contract'. If there is no such signage or contract then you've nothing to worry about. A private company cannot ticket you for a Clearway infringement without specifying what their rules and penalties etc are.
Presumably the first thing to establish is whether it's really private and not governed by the RTA (etc). I would think that's clearly not true.
So it could be a proper Clearway as per RTA/HC definition. Seems unlikely and not sure it can be enforced by privateers.
Or could it be extra rules invented by the land owner, governed by contract and privately enforced (as private parking now is).
It's probably the latter. Very interesting. It'll turn on whether the contract conditions are made clear enough to be contractually enforceable. Also how do the new rules allowing (private parking) contract work regarding the driver and the RK being responsible? Do they cover other things like "Clearways"?
Bert
So it could be a proper Clearway as per RTA/HC definition. Seems unlikely and not sure it can be enforced by privateers.
Or could it be extra rules invented by the land owner, governed by contract and privately enforced (as private parking now is).
It's probably the latter. Very interesting. It'll turn on whether the contract conditions are made clear enough to be contractually enforceable. Also how do the new rules allowing (private parking) contract work regarding the driver and the RK being responsible? Do they cover other things like "Clearways"?
Bert
tvrgit said:
The sign alone means nothing without a Traffic Regulation Order.
This ^^^In connection also see tvrgit's post on page 2 of the Private road and parking issues thread which is currently on same page of SP&L. It covers some relevant issues.
Thanks all (and esp. FiF/tvrgit) - some really useful info.
Trying to pull all of this together:-
- There were yellow lines, which I take to mean 'no waiting' rather than 'no stopping', at least in conjunction with a clearway.
- There were SOME clearway signs, although I only saw small repeaters not large 'start' signs. Can't remember if one slash or a cross though...might need to go back and check if I do get a 'bill' through the post. If a cross and validly started/ended, then I'm probably bang-to-rights from a government perspective, as I both dropped Becs off and picked her up. But see private/council later...
- It's called University Road, so i suspect it's a 'road to which the public have access', rather than an adopted road.
- I don't know, and it would be interesting to find out, whether Mr Dayglo is Council-employed or privately-employed/contracted to the Uni. I suspect the latter...
...which if so would mean that I am (probably) only liable IF their signage was clear enough to a driver of a moving vehicle to be deemed to be reasonable contract acceptance.
Watch this space...will let you know if they send me a love-letter...and thanks once again!
Trying to pull all of this together:-
- There were yellow lines, which I take to mean 'no waiting' rather than 'no stopping', at least in conjunction with a clearway.
- There were SOME clearway signs, although I only saw small repeaters not large 'start' signs. Can't remember if one slash or a cross though...might need to go back and check if I do get a 'bill' through the post. If a cross and validly started/ended, then I'm probably bang-to-rights from a government perspective, as I both dropped Becs off and picked her up. But see private/council later...
- It's called University Road, so i suspect it's a 'road to which the public have access', rather than an adopted road.
- I don't know, and it would be interesting to find out, whether Mr Dayglo is Council-employed or privately-employed/contracted to the Uni. I suspect the latter...
...which if so would mean that I am (probably) only liable IF their signage was clear enough to a driver of a moving vehicle to be deemed to be reasonable contract acceptance.
Watch this space...will let you know if they send me a love-letter...and thanks once again!
I repeat a private contractor cannot ticket you for anything unless there is a contract! If there is no terms and conditions board at the entrance setting out the rules of their 'Clearway' and what a breach means then they have no contract. If it's a Uni campus they would need such terms to be clearly displayed and I guess somewhere where you could stop to read them without automatically breaching the terms of their Clearway.. You may get a warning but they cannot report you for an RTA type breach as previously mentioned there won't be a Traffic Order in place. If they try it on ask them where their terms and conditions are clearly displayed for you to read.
I've worked on large industrial sites with their own internal road network, which had a set of site specific traffic rules. When I agreed to work there I got a site driving licence and had to agree to abide by their rules. A major contravention of the rules would cause the site licence to be revoked, but couldn't and didn't have any impact on my real driving licence. So it may be that university employees and students are in a similar position, but if you are just visting then theres nothing much they can do.
FiF said:
tvrgit said:
The sign alone means nothing without a Traffic Regulation Order.
This ^^^In connection also see tvrgit's post on page 2 of the Private road and parking issues thread which is currently on same page of SP&L. It covers some relevant issues.
tvrgit said:
FiF said:
tvrgit said:
The sign alone means nothing without a Traffic Regulation Order.
This ^^^In connection also see tvrgit's post on page 2 of the Private road and parking issues thread which is currently on same page of SP&L. It covers some relevant issues.
Points at the SP&L where are the experts thread.
havoc said:
Per the highway code stopping is permitted for brief periods, such as to drop-off / pick-up passengers. Waiting is not permitted, nor is loading/unloading.
I suspect Mr Chip-on-shoulder had the same view as you, hence our argument this afternoon. I'm a little concerned that it'll escalate into a ticket for (possibly) no valid reason and I'll end up having to fight it.
...what I'd like is to know more details, e.g. case-law, to know whether I am facing a valid ticket for a stupid, letter-of-the-law reason, or whether I've a genuine defence...
Yes you can stop to drop off someone, but not to wait to pick them up again, doesn't mention brief periods though, then again Mr Jobswortht could have been a little lean if he wanted to.I suspect Mr Chip-on-shoulder had the same view as you, hence our argument this afternoon. I'm a little concerned that it'll escalate into a ticket for (possibly) no valid reason and I'll end up having to fight it.
...what I'd like is to know more details, e.g. case-law, to know whether I am facing a valid ticket for a stupid, letter-of-the-law reason, or whether I've a genuine defence...
FiF said:
tvrgit said:
FiF said:
tvrgit said:
The sign alone means nothing without a Traffic Regulation Order.
This ^^^In connection also see tvrgit's post on page 2 of the Private road and parking issues thread which is currently on same page of SP&L. It covers some relevant issues.
Points at the SP&L where are the experts thread.
t together". And for money too, that's the best bit.So arguing for free on an Internet forum isn't really my top priority. Neither is giving a toss.
AW111 said:
So after being ticked off for stopping to drop off your wife, you decided it was a good idea to park up and have a chat with your lad?
They may not have the legal right to fine you, but I can understand the warden being a bit pissed off.
Ah, the good old PH "not read the thread properly and have a go at the OP for fun" spirit!They may not have the legal right to fine you, but I can understand the warden being a bit pissed off.
I pulled into a side road to turn around, and THERE stopped for <1 minute to talk to a small boy who was asking what was going on. If (god forbid) you ever have kids, you may understand...
Vipers - as above - know what double-yellows mean, didn't abuse them.
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