Is there a faster way around a given track than current F1?

[humpbackmaniac]

Just musing over speed, and I was wondering if there is currently a faster way around a given track, say Silverstone, than a modern F1 car? Short of using a 2009 or older car with more aero, I appreciate lap times were slightly faster then, but if an Open Class existed where anything was possible what would teams build and would we watch them race?

[kambites]

humpbackmaniac said:

... if an Open Class existed where anything was possible what would teams build and would we watch them race?

With no rules, it would be possible (probably quite easy) to make cars VERY much faster than current F1. I suspect the limit would be the ability of the drivers to stay conscious through the G-forces (assuming drivers were a requirement).

[Krikkit]

If you ran an open class you would probably find people grabbing a reasonably modern F1 chassis and shoehorning some kind of nutter turbo engine into it. Money no object you could build something faster, but it's a better idea to take advantage of the billions of pounds of F1 development first.

[R8Steve]

humpbackmaniac said:

Just musing over speed, and I was wondering if there is currently a faster way around a given track, say Silverstone, than a modern F1 car? Short of using a 2009 or older car with more aero, I appreciate lap times were slightly faster then, but if an Open Class existed where anything was possible what would teams build and would we watch them race?

If it was an open class i'm sure they could make the current F1 cars a lot faster with no restrictions on aero, engine, tyres, fuel, etc. Looking at the lap times for Silverstone though all other series are a long way off the F1 times.

[otolith]

Just add power. More power means that you can live with more drag, which means you can use aero which generates more downforce. Continue until the driver loses consciousness.

[KarlMac]

Would be interesting to see some of the world time attack and pikes peak cars go against them.

How do WEC times compare?

[kambites]

Krikkit said:

If you ran an open class you would probably find people grabbing a reasonably modern F1 chassis and shoehorning some kind of nutter turbo engine into it. Money no object you could build something faster, but it's a better idea to take advantage of the billions of pounds of F1 development first.

I don't think F1 cars would be a good place to start - the money in F1 is focused too much into making tiny improvements within the rules and the fundamental design of an open class car would be completely different. I think such a car would be closed wheel and closed cockpit; probably with no wings (generating all its downforce from under-body aero with computer controlled suspension giving very tightly controlled ride height). I'm not even sure you'd use a piston engine - I think you can get more power per unit weight out of a jet these days.

[Fittster]

kambites said:

With no rules, it would be possible (probably quite easy) to make cars VERY much faster than current F1. I suspect the limit would be the ability of the drivers to stay conscious through the G-forces (assuming drivers were a requirement).

With no restrictions would you bother with a driver?

[GroundEffect]

KarlMac said:

Would be interesting to see some of the world time attack and pikes peak cars go against them.

How do WEC times compare?

WEC is about 8 seconds slower than F1 around Silverstone.

1. Webber/Hartley/Bernhard GER Porsche 919 Hybrid 1m 39.721s LMP1

Silverstone F1 Pole 2015: 1m 32.248

Time Attack and Pikes Peak would get annihilated by F1. Even today's heavier, lower downforce F1.

[kambites]

Fittster said:

With no restrictions would you bother with a driver?

Probably not; would the "car" even touch the ground or could some sort of flying drone be quicker?

You always need some rules even if it's just "you must stay within the confines of the track and always be touching the ground".

[Buff Mchugelarge]

otolith said:

Just add power. More power means that you can live with more drag, which means you can use aero which generates more downforce. Continue until the driver loses consciousness.

If that were the case for next season I'd start watching F1 again!.
Nomex inflatable trousers, 2ft wide tyres and 15sq ft of wings and spoilers attached to a bare carbon chassis, 6.0 litre v10 with two HUGE turbos.. And a supercharger... And hybrid tech.. And many, many deaths I'd imagine!

We can but dream.

[mat205125]

GroundEffect said:

KarlMac said:

Would be interesting to see some of the world time attack and pikes peak cars go against them.

How do WEC times compare?

WEC is about 8 seconds slower than F1 around Silverstone.

1. Webber/Hartley/Bernhard GER Porsche 919 Hybrid 1m 39.721s LMP1

Silverstone F1 Pole 2015: 1m 32.248

Time Attack and Pikes Peak would get annihilated by F1. Even today's heavier, lower downforce F1.

To add to the above stats, below was the pole time for this year's Moto GP, which was a pole record ..... no bike has ever gone around the current configuration track in less than 2 minutes therefore.

Marc Marquez ESP Repsol Honda Team (RC213V) 2m 0.234s 322km/h (Top Speed)

I've had a quick Google and can't find a report or lap time for an Indycar around the Austen Texas track, to compare to the 2014 F1 pole time ....... 2015's weather wouldn't make for a fair comparison.

[mat205125]

Buff Mchugelarge said:

otolith said:

Just add power. More power means that you can live with more drag, which means you can use aero which generates more downforce. Continue until the driver loses consciousness.

If that were the case for next season I'd start watching F1 again!.
Nomex inflatable trousers, 2ft wide tyres and 15sq ft of wings and spoilers attached to a bare carbon chassis, 6.0 litre v10 with two HUGE turbos.. And a supercharger... And hybrid tech.. And many, many deaths I'd imagine!

We can but dream.

2017 regulations are hopefully heading that way ..... have a Google.

More mechanical grip.

Hopefully more power.

Probably more aero too.

Suggestions of no DRS though, which could be detrimental to overtaking and racing, however that's for another thread.

[J4CKO]

This has always intrigued me, would love to see what could be done.

[james_gt3rs]

What if it was the TT course

[cptsideways]

I think you will find many a F3 are quicker in places

[simoid]

Fittster said:

With no restrictions would you bother with a driver?

Could we have the drivers in a simulator, controlling the cars remotely? Think how fast the best drivers in the world could go without the limitations of fear and rules

[Dr JonboyG]

simoid said:

Could we have the drivers in a simulator, controlling the cars remotely? Think how fast the best drivers in the world could go without the limitations of fear and rules

Apparently they tried FPV RC car racing (like FPV drone racing http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2015/08/the-new-und... but the scaled speeds were too high for it to work (and presumably, slowing the cars down by 50% would look underwhelming for spectators).

[Krikkit]

kambites said:

Krikkit said:

If you ran an open class you would probably find people grabbing a reasonably modern F1 chassis and shoehorning some kind of nutter turbo engine into it. Money no object you could build something faster, but it's a better idea to take advantage of the billions of pounds of F1 development first.

I don't think F1 cars would be a good place to start - the money in F1 is focused too much into making tiny improvements within the rules and the fundamental design of an open class car would be completely different. I think such a car would be closed wheel and closed cockpit; probably with no wings (generating all its downforce from under-body aero with computer controlled suspension giving very tightly controlled ride height). I'm not even sure you'd use a piston engine - I think you can get more power per unit weight out of a jet these days.

Money no object I agree - but to start with, say, £5m, to get a car as fast as possible I think an F1 car with mods would be a better start than a clean sheet as they are hugely faster than most other series.

[mat205125]

james_gt3rs said:

What if it was the TT course

Always going to be loads of "what if" locations with lots of different answers.

IOM TT favours two wheels, primarily due to it's winding nature meaning that the bike can straight line flat out in many places where a car would need to brake or lift. Also the bumpy nature doesn't favour a formula car.

Col de Turini (assume dry and above freezing) would shift the balance away from two wheels or a formula car, and possibly towards a rally derived AWD car.

Series like the European sprint and hillclimb series are pretty close to being completely open, and on a wide variety of types of courses.