Getting money back from a dealer
Discussion
So a rundown:
Goes to Indy for a major service for £250. Friend picks it up all good. Next day he takes it out and it stalls on the way to the shops. RAC come out and is confused, just about manages to jump start it after lots of attempts and checking around and follows the friend to the independent where it is left for a few days. They check everything and the battery and wash their hands of it.
Unfortunately at this time he needs a car for a wedding so he rents one for a week for £200. He arranges the Accord to get to an auto electrician who spends 4 hours on it and charges £150 saying it's something to do with transmission valve body and can't go further, needs to do to the dealer. Sadly this was paid by cash.
RAC then recover from auto electrician to the dealership after not being able to get it going after an hour on it. Dealer say the S4 bosch battery is inadequate and the wrong spec of CCA, they change it and it starts up fine and works. £120 done.
Next day it's dead again, dealership say bring it back. After a week they say they have checked all the grounds and spoke to Honda who say first replace the relays, if that doesn't work then it is the ECU. Relays replaced for £100, still clicking. Dealer now says ECU time for £2500.
At this point my friend wants someone else involved, I decide to step in and tell him to recover it to my place. He picks it up from Honda, pays the £100 for the relays then makes his way to my warehouse. It then dies on the way to mine. RAC spend an hour on it and then tow it to mine concluding it probably is the ECU.
So I spent some time on it as I felt bad for him, read the dealers invoices and findings.
Took the ECU out and it looked fine to me inside. Did some more rummaging in the engine bay, took the rear engine cover off and checked the coils and made sure everything was okay.
Decided to take the front one off over the injectors for the hell of it, ground wire was loose Tightened it up and car has now gone back to normal!
So 3 RAC folk, 2 dealer visits, 1 independant visit and 1 auto electrician who couldn't find a loose bolt under an engine cover that is right infront of you.
His aim is to get the money back from Honda for the battery replacement, relays and diagnostic charges. I think this is reasonable due to the faff involved.
Goes to Indy for a major service for £250. Friend picks it up all good. Next day he takes it out and it stalls on the way to the shops. RAC come out and is confused, just about manages to jump start it after lots of attempts and checking around and follows the friend to the independent where it is left for a few days. They check everything and the battery and wash their hands of it.
Unfortunately at this time he needs a car for a wedding so he rents one for a week for £200. He arranges the Accord to get to an auto electrician who spends 4 hours on it and charges £150 saying it's something to do with transmission valve body and can't go further, needs to do to the dealer. Sadly this was paid by cash.
RAC then recover from auto electrician to the dealership after not being able to get it going after an hour on it. Dealer say the S4 bosch battery is inadequate and the wrong spec of CCA, they change it and it starts up fine and works. £120 done.
Next day it's dead again, dealership say bring it back. After a week they say they have checked all the grounds and spoke to Honda who say first replace the relays, if that doesn't work then it is the ECU. Relays replaced for £100, still clicking. Dealer now says ECU time for £2500.
At this point my friend wants someone else involved, I decide to step in and tell him to recover it to my place. He picks it up from Honda, pays the £100 for the relays then makes his way to my warehouse. It then dies on the way to mine. RAC spend an hour on it and then tow it to mine concluding it probably is the ECU.
So I spent some time on it as I felt bad for him, read the dealers invoices and findings.
Took the ECU out and it looked fine to me inside. Did some more rummaging in the engine bay, took the rear engine cover off and checked the coils and made sure everything was okay.
Decided to take the front one off over the injectors for the hell of it, ground wire was loose Tightened it up and car has now gone back to normal!
So 3 RAC folk, 2 dealer visits, 1 independant visit and 1 auto electrician who couldn't find a loose bolt under an engine cover that is right infront of you.
His aim is to get the money back from Honda for the battery replacement, relays and diagnostic charges. I think this is reasonable due to the faff involved.
Supply of Goods & Services 1982, S13 - implied term as to reasonable care and skill.
Clearly every one of those providing a service seems to have fallen short of this.
Proving it may be tough. Will take a lot of letter writing and threats of a small claim for breach of that implied term.
Clearly every one of those providing a service seems to have fallen short of this.
Proving it may be tough. Will take a lot of letter writing and threats of a small claim for breach of that implied term.
Sump said:
So a rundown:
Goes to Indy for a major service for £250. Friend picks it up all good. Next day he takes it out and it stalls on the way to the shops. RAC come out and is confused, just about manages to jump start it after lots of attempts and checking around and follows the friend to the independent where it is left for a few days. They check everything and the battery and wash their hands of it.
Unfortunately at this time he needs a car for a wedding so he rents one for a week for £200. He arranges the Accord to get to an auto electrician who spends 4 hours on it and charges £150 saying it's something to do with transmission valve body and can't go further, needs to do to the dealer. Sadly this was paid by cash.
RAC then recover from auto electrician to the dealership after not being able to get it going after an hour on it. Dealer say the S4 bosch battery is inadequate and the wrong spec of CCA, they change it and it starts up fine and works. £120 done.
Next day it's dead again, dealership say bring it back. After a week they say they have checked all the grounds and spoke to Honda who say first replace the relays, if that doesn't work then it is the ECU. Relays replaced for £100, still clicking. Dealer now says ECU time for £2500.
At this point my friend wants someone else involved, I decide to step in and tell him to recover it to my place. He picks it up from Honda, pays the £100 for the relays then makes his way to my warehouse. It then dies on the way to mine. RAC spend an hour on it and then tow it to mine concluding it probably is the ECU.
So I spent some time on it as I felt bad for him, read the dealers invoices and findings.
Took the ECU out and it looked fine to me inside. Did some more rummaging in the engine bay, took the rear engine cover off and checked the coils and made sure everything was okay.
Decided to take the front one off over the injectors for the hell of it, ground wire was loose Tightened it up and car has now gone back to normal!
So 3 RAC folk, 2 dealer visits, 1 independant visit and 1 auto electrician who couldn't find a loose bolt under an engine cover that is right infront of you.
His aim is to get the money back from Honda for the battery replacement, relays and diagnostic charges. I think this is reasonable due to the faff involved.
Based on your own description, it seems to me that you found the fault more by luck than judgement, and only after also exhausting the other possible components that could have been the cause. On that basis, how reasonable would it be to expect others to to find the fault, which you couldn't find as well?Goes to Indy for a major service for £250. Friend picks it up all good. Next day he takes it out and it stalls on the way to the shops. RAC come out and is confused, just about manages to jump start it after lots of attempts and checking around and follows the friend to the independent where it is left for a few days. They check everything and the battery and wash their hands of it.
Unfortunately at this time he needs a car for a wedding so he rents one for a week for £200. He arranges the Accord to get to an auto electrician who spends 4 hours on it and charges £150 saying it's something to do with transmission valve body and can't go further, needs to do to the dealer. Sadly this was paid by cash.
RAC then recover from auto electrician to the dealership after not being able to get it going after an hour on it. Dealer say the S4 bosch battery is inadequate and the wrong spec of CCA, they change it and it starts up fine and works. £120 done.
Next day it's dead again, dealership say bring it back. After a week they say they have checked all the grounds and spoke to Honda who say first replace the relays, if that doesn't work then it is the ECU. Relays replaced for £100, still clicking. Dealer now says ECU time for £2500.
At this point my friend wants someone else involved, I decide to step in and tell him to recover it to my place. He picks it up from Honda, pays the £100 for the relays then makes his way to my warehouse. It then dies on the way to mine. RAC spend an hour on it and then tow it to mine concluding it probably is the ECU.
So I spent some time on it as I felt bad for him, read the dealers invoices and findings.
Took the ECU out and it looked fine to me inside. Did some more rummaging in the engine bay, took the rear engine cover off and checked the coils and made sure everything was okay.
Decided to take the front one off over the injectors for the hell of it, ground wire was loose Tightened it up and car has now gone back to normal!
So 3 RAC folk, 2 dealer visits, 1 independant visit and 1 auto electrician who couldn't find a loose bolt under an engine cover that is right infront of you.
His aim is to get the money back from Honda for the battery replacement, relays and diagnostic charges. I think this is reasonable due to the faff involved.
johnfm said:
Supply of Goods & Services 1982, S13 - implied term as to reasonable care and skill.
Clearly every one of those providing a service seems to have fallen short of this.
Proving it may be tough. Will take a lot of letter writing and threats of a small claim for breach of that implied term.
This, OP.Clearly every one of those providing a service seems to have fallen short of this.
Proving it may be tough. Will take a lot of letter writing and threats of a small claim for breach of that implied term.
My instant guess would be that the RAC would have terms which mean that they are not liable for the consequential cost of them failing to provide a fix by the roadside.
Additionally, what is the relationship with Honda? Again, it comes down to facts, but, if the dealer was going off advice from Honda UK, your contract is surely with the dealer, not Honda UK. Honda UK will argue that they were just advising the dealer from their position of limited facts, and on the information that the grounds had been tested.
What you need to do is from the total mess that has occurred needle down where a party has not used reasonable care and skill.
The downside to the story is unfortunately, playing through such a claim, if one was to reveal the full timeline that a defendant might argue that they had perform their duties to a 'reasonable' but not perfect standard. They might have missed something, but, so did two other parties.
The timeline goes something like this:
Independant service Centre
RAC
Independant service Centre
Auto electrican
RAC
Dealer
Battery replacement
Dealer
Relay replacement/ wanting to replace ECU
RAC
My office
My problem is with the dealer visit only. The first time the S4 battery is adequate and new and it still displayed symptoms of a poor ground. They said they checked all the grounds thoroughly and decided the battery replacement was the best option. Right there is the lie or incompetance. The grounds were not checked thoroughly. Everything that has happened after that is due to their incompetence. Even the 2nd visit to them they lied again about checking the grounds.
Independant service Centre
RAC
Independant service Centre
Auto electrican
RAC
Dealer
Battery replacement
Dealer
Relay replacement/ wanting to replace ECU
RAC
My office
My problem is with the dealer visit only. The first time the S4 battery is adequate and new and it still displayed symptoms of a poor ground. They said they checked all the grounds thoroughly and decided the battery replacement was the best option. Right there is the lie or incompetance. The grounds were not checked thoroughly. Everything that has happened after that is due to their incompetence. Even the 2nd visit to them they lied again about checking the grounds.
OP I cannot help you with who is responsible for not finding the fault but can help you cheer up your friend at Christmas by changing a few words when you have a sing song.
On the twelfth day of Christmas,
my true love sent to me
Twelve drummers drumming,
Eleven pipers piping,
Ten lords a-leaping,
Nine ladies dancing,
Eight maids a-milking,
Seven swans a-swimming,
Six geese a-laying,
Five golden rings,
Four calling birds,
Three RAC folk,
Two Dealer visits,
One Independant visits,
An Auto electrician
And a partridge in a pear tree!
This is from your opening post but your last post you seam to have changes the schedule of visits.I am sure you can change the song to be correct.
On the twelfth day of Christmas,
my true love sent to me
Twelve drummers drumming,
Eleven pipers piping,
Ten lords a-leaping,
Nine ladies dancing,
Eight maids a-milking,
Seven swans a-swimming,
Six geese a-laying,
Five golden rings,
Four calling birds,
Three RAC folk,
Two Dealer visits,
One Independant visits,
An Auto electrician
And a partridge in a pear tree!
This is from your opening post but your last post you seam to have changes the schedule of visits.I am sure you can change the song to be correct.
Edited by btcc123 on Monday 30th November 19:09
Mandat said:
Based on your own description, it seems to me that you found the fault more by luck than judgement, and only after also exhausting the other possible components that could have been the cause. On that basis, how reasonable would it be to expect others to to find the fault, which you couldn't find as well?
But he did find it, why are you saying he didn't?Drove out of the dealer once.
The first visit it didn't start twice, then started the next day in the afternoon. The second time it didn't start at all until the last day ( was there for a week.)
The auto electrican it didn't start at all when it was there.
The independant it didn't start at all either.
The first visit it didn't start twice, then started the next day in the afternoon. The second time it didn't start at all until the last day ( was there for a week.)
The auto electrican it didn't start at all when it was there.
The independant it didn't start at all either.
I don't think you have grounds for complaint
either the battery was out of spec or it wasn't, if it was then it was reasonable to replace it with the correct one even if it was new.
The fault was intermittent, making it very hard to diagnose, just because you found a lose ground wire and they didn't doesn't mean they lied and didn't inspect it, they may have tested it with a multi meter at the connector end, and found it to have a good connection, the connection issue might have only been apparent under the vibration of the engine being cranked, which would explain why so many people were unable to detect it.
You could say they didn't do enough by not checking the other end of the connection manually, but imagine how many times they have to check ground connections, probably 99% of the time testing them electronically will be sufficient, and a manual check of the other end may often involve a significant amount of labour, so doing it as a matter of course could waste thousands of £ of customers money, to occasionally get a result.
either the battery was out of spec or it wasn't, if it was then it was reasonable to replace it with the correct one even if it was new.
The fault was intermittent, making it very hard to diagnose, just because you found a lose ground wire and they didn't doesn't mean they lied and didn't inspect it, they may have tested it with a multi meter at the connector end, and found it to have a good connection, the connection issue might have only been apparent under the vibration of the engine being cranked, which would explain why so many people were unable to detect it.
You could say they didn't do enough by not checking the other end of the connection manually, but imagine how many times they have to check ground connections, probably 99% of the time testing them electronically will be sufficient, and a manual check of the other end may often involve a significant amount of labour, so doing it as a matter of course could waste thousands of £ of customers money, to occasionally get a result.
2 of the grounds had been removed,cleaned up, covered heavily copper slip and refitted. So they were actively checking grounds, just not the one on the fuel rail.
The second time they had the vehicle the fault was permanent for the entire week. They said they checked every ground on the car and found them all to be connected fine. This is what led to the relays and then the ECU.
Them saying they checked every ground to make sure it was tight is where we have a problem.
I think it's unreasonable not to remove 2 10mm nuts on the engine cover and check that ground on there.
The second time they had the vehicle the fault was permanent for the entire week. They said they checked every ground on the car and found them all to be connected fine. This is what led to the relays and then the ECU.
Them saying they checked every ground to make sure it was tight is where we have a problem.
I think it's unreasonable not to remove 2 10mm nuts on the engine cover and check that ground on there.
Edited by Sump on Monday 30th November 23:33
That's the problem with diagnostics, they're only as good as the person doing it. One person might be lucky and find a broken wire in 2 minutes. Another would plug in, read the fault, test the faulty sensor, check the fuses, test the ecu, check one section of wiring before finally finding the broken wire. It's luck of the draw really.
I've been in both situations plenty of times. I doubt you would get the diagnostics refunded, but I would expect the labour change for any incorrectly fitted items to be returned.
I've been in both situations plenty of times. I doubt you would get the diagnostics refunded, but I would expect the labour change for any incorrectly fitted items to be returned.
Sump said:
2 of the grounds had been removed,cleaned up, covered heavily copper slip and refitted. So they were actively checking grounds, just not the one on the fuel rail.
The second time they had the vehicle the fault was permanent for the entire week. They said they checked every ground on the car and found them all to be connected fine. This is what led to the relays and then the ECU.
Them saying they checked every ground to make sure it was tight is where we have a problem.
I think it's unreasonable not to remove 2 10mm nuts on the engine cover and check that ground on there.
Sounds like a fair complaint, although are you certain the dealer was the one who manually inspected the other grounds?The second time they had the vehicle the fault was permanent for the entire week. They said they checked every ground on the car and found them all to be connected fine. This is what led to the relays and then the ECU.
Them saying they checked every ground to make sure it was tight is where we have a problem.
I think it's unreasonable not to remove 2 10mm nuts on the engine cover and check that ground on there.
That could have been the auto electrician who missed the one actually causing the issue perhaps because he was a general auto electrician not particularly familiar with the specific model so simply didn't know it was there.
Sump said:
Drove out of the dealer once.
The first visit it didn't start twice, then started the next day in the afternoon. The second time it didn't start at all until the last day ( was there for a week.)
The auto electrican it didn't start at all when it was there.
The independant it didn't start at all either.
In which case you have been badly served.The first visit it didn't start twice, then started the next day in the afternoon. The second time it didn't start at all until the last day ( was there for a week.)
The auto electrican it didn't start at all when it was there.
The independant it didn't start at all either.
In practical terms I'm not sure how you would go on for getting the money back but you may have a case, in theory at least!
Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff