Annual leave refused. What's allowed?
Discussion
This year the company informed all employees this will be the first year annual entitlement won't be allowed to carry on if not used. All days must be used before the year is out. I'm Ok with that and we warned months ago about this.
However I've saved and had time off at Christmas and New Year requested for months now. I've saved the holidays all year to use for this period.
Today I've been informed I'm not going to be allowed the leave.
This is a pain for numerous reasons. I've got plans and this is a bit late notice. It also matches up with her holidays.
I've still been requested to use the holidays up before the year is out. I have no alternative plans and using up annual leave for no reason is just a waste.
If I knew this was the case months ago, I could have planned to use the days off constructively. The goalposts have been moved late on leaving me with the prospect of having a week off in the next 3 weeks.
There's nothing in my contract about length of notice required. The word reasonable is used, but no definition of how long is reasonable.
I don't think this is reasonable given the circumstances.
However I've saved and had time off at Christmas and New Year requested for months now. I've saved the holidays all year to use for this period.
Today I've been informed I'm not going to be allowed the leave.
This is a pain for numerous reasons. I've got plans and this is a bit late notice. It also matches up with her holidays.
I've still been requested to use the holidays up before the year is out. I have no alternative plans and using up annual leave for no reason is just a waste.
If I knew this was the case months ago, I could have planned to use the days off constructively. The goalposts have been moved late on leaving me with the prospect of having a week off in the next 3 weeks.
There's nothing in my contract about length of notice required. The word reasonable is used, but no definition of how long is reasonable.
I don't think this is reasonable given the circumstances.
Edited by Driver101 on Tuesday 1st December 03:15
Driver101 said:
This year the company informed all employees this will be the first year annual entitlement won't be allowed to carry on if not used. All days must be used before the year is out. I'm Ok with that and we warned months ago about this.
I'd get another job. f
k 'em.Also you cannot just be "informed" that your leave cannot be carried over. That is a change in your contract terms so you have to be notified of it and then consent to it.
I should have stressed that carrying holidays forward isn't in our contract either. They have openly allowed a maximum of 5 days to be carried forward, but we knew this wasn't guaranteed.
This is the first time they've clamped down and not allowing it. They did let us know that this favour was being removed to give us time to use our holiday.
This is the first time they've clamped down and not allowing it. They did let us know that this favour was being removed to give us time to use our holiday.
You don't say what industry you're in or what your role is; do they have any bearing on this decision?
You've not mentioned why you think this decision has been made and whether or not it just impacts upon you or others too. It would also be of interest to know if this is an isolated incident or it happens more regularly.
If it doesn't, then it does sound a little tough to change things when you'd reasonably assumed you had the time off that you and your manager had previously agreed to.
If it were me, the first thing I'd do is to have a coffee with my boss and talk it through to understand better the background to the decision and then see if there is any compromise to be had. Assuming there is a good reason to change the goalposts, then keep the communication going in order to see what you can salvage. If in your opinion there is no good reason, then you may have grounds for complaint. Good luck!
You've not mentioned why you think this decision has been made and whether or not it just impacts upon you or others too. It would also be of interest to know if this is an isolated incident or it happens more regularly.
If it doesn't, then it does sound a little tough to change things when you'd reasonably assumed you had the time off that you and your manager had previously agreed to.
If it were me, the first thing I'd do is to have a coffee with my boss and talk it through to understand better the background to the decision and then see if there is any compromise to be had. Assuming there is a good reason to change the goalposts, then keep the communication going in order to see what you can salvage. If in your opinion there is no good reason, then you may have grounds for complaint. Good luck!
There's 2 issues
1 - Use it or Lose it
2 - No Xmas Holiday to be taken
Both are at the discretion of the bosses, according to most contracts anyway so it's a bit tough titties. It'd be worth a chat with the boss to put your position forward and show you've saved up the holidays specifically and ask them for an exception to the Xmas holiday thing. It's always been in my contracts that holiday requests are requests, rather than auto accepted
1 - Use it or Lose it
2 - No Xmas Holiday to be taken
Both are at the discretion of the bosses, according to most contracts anyway so it's a bit tough titties. It'd be worth a chat with the boss to put your position forward and show you've saved up the holidays specifically and ask them for an exception to the Xmas holiday thing. It's always been in my contracts that holiday requests are requests, rather than auto accepted
Holiday which is within the statutory minimum cannot be carried forward. It has to be taken. Holiday above that can be carried forward according to your contract.
How many days holiday do you get a year?
Reasonable notice is usually twice the amount of holiday from both parties so 2 weeks notice if you want a week off.
If the holiday remaining is statutory then they cannot stop you taking it between now and the end of the holiday year. It must be taken and it can't be paid off. But they are entitled to choose when.
I'd still have a good go at them and suggest they should have refused the holiday ages ago then you wouldn't have made plans thinking it was ok.
How many days holiday do you get a year?
Reasonable notice is usually twice the amount of holiday from both parties so 2 weeks notice if you want a week off.
If the holiday remaining is statutory then they cannot stop you taking it between now and the end of the holiday year. It must be taken and it can't be paid off. But they are entitled to choose when.
I'd still have a good go at them and suggest they should have refused the holiday ages ago then you wouldn't have made plans thinking it was ok.
hornetrider said:
What if you were going to Lapland and had already booked flights/hotels etc? Cancelling holiday with 3 weeks notice isn't really on imo.
They haven't cancelled it as they haven't granted it in the first place. If the employment contract has nothing to say on the matter then the default is that the employer must give as much notice as the amount of leave requested when refusing leave.plasticpig said:
hornetrider said:
What if you were going to Lapland and had already booked flights/hotels etc? Cancelling holiday with 3 weeks notice isn't really on imo.
They haven't cancelled it as they haven't granted it in the first place.truck71 said:
OP, was the holiday time authorised or just requested? If it was the former then it sounds very unreasonable, if the latter and there has been no response then it's still not great but there could be no assumption it would be granted.
This, had you requested the holiday or had it been authorised?I went through something similar with my part time job, prior to quitting.
To break it down, they can cancel any holiday request subject to giving you the appropriate notice.
However, bear with me as this is ACAS's advice that was given to me, they cannot simply refuse statutory holiday allowance to be taken and refuse to rollover without coming to a compromise (this does not necessarily mean getting the dates you want but instead just finding dates that they will compromise on). I was advised that if this is still the case, even after trying to come to an arrangement through informal conversation with line managers etc, that you can raise a formal grievance and then go through that procedure. Of course, ACAS's word isn't always golden and I would strongly suggest you speak to someone who has qualified experience surrounding this, including the laws (I believe that most of it is dealt with through an EU directive, though the name escapes me and some UK legislation). Secondly, although raising a grievance may seem like a good idea whilst frustrated and annoyed, ultimately it may cause further stress and tension in the workplace.
Please note, all of the above is off vague memory of phone conversations and online reading of directives etc, IANAL.
To break it down, they can cancel any holiday request subject to giving you the appropriate notice.
However, bear with me as this is ACAS's advice that was given to me, they cannot simply refuse statutory holiday allowance to be taken and refuse to rollover without coming to a compromise (this does not necessarily mean getting the dates you want but instead just finding dates that they will compromise on). I was advised that if this is still the case, even after trying to come to an arrangement through informal conversation with line managers etc, that you can raise a formal grievance and then go through that procedure. Of course, ACAS's word isn't always golden and I would strongly suggest you speak to someone who has qualified experience surrounding this, including the laws (I believe that most of it is dealt with through an EU directive, though the name escapes me and some UK legislation). Secondly, although raising a grievance may seem like a good idea whilst frustrated and annoyed, ultimately it may cause further stress and tension in the workplace.
Please note, all of the above is off vague memory of phone conversations and online reading of directives etc, IANAL.
My previous employment had a clause in the terms and conditions that said the manager had to authorize or refuse any holiday request within 1week of the request otherwise it was deemed to be authorized. Unscrupulous individuals would wait till their manager was off then bung in requests for holidays which would normally have been refused.
All our holidays are booked through an online system.
My boss is really bad in that he only ever approves the holidays on a month by month basis, not at the time they are requested.
I'd put in for these holidays months ago, but like always he waited until the end of November to look at December holidays.
He does the same every month, then always approves them.
I appreciate the use them or lose them idea, I also understand about holidays at the company's discretion due to needs, however I feel after giving months of notice, made my Christmas and New year plans, only to have it ruined at 3 weeks notice isn't fair. They've had ample time to cater for business needs.
I work on a 3x8 hour Mon-Fri shift pattern. There's seven of us in a similar role and the company wants at least 50% of people in.
My holiday entitlement this year was 8 statutory holidays, which include 25th and 28th Dec, then the 1st and 4th of Jan. I also had 28 days of holidays, which I've saved for the Christmas period off.
My boss is really bad in that he only ever approves the holidays on a month by month basis, not at the time they are requested.
I'd put in for these holidays months ago, but like always he waited until the end of November to look at December holidays.
He does the same every month, then always approves them.
I appreciate the use them or lose them idea, I also understand about holidays at the company's discretion due to needs, however I feel after giving months of notice, made my Christmas and New year plans, only to have it ruined at 3 weeks notice isn't fair. They've had ample time to cater for business needs.
I work on a 3x8 hour Mon-Fri shift pattern. There's seven of us in a similar role and the company wants at least 50% of people in.
My holiday entitlement this year was 8 statutory holidays, which include 25th and 28th Dec, then the 1st and 4th of Jan. I also had 28 days of holidays, which I've saved for the Christmas period off.
Driver101 said:
All our holidays are booked through an online system.
My boss is really bad in that he only ever approves the holidays on a month by month basis, not at the time they are requested.
I'd put in for these holidays months ago, but like always he waited until the end of November to look at December holidays.
He does the same every month, then always approves them.
I appreciate the use them or lose them idea, I also understand about holidays at the company's discretion due to needs, however I feel after giving months of notice, made my Christmas and New year plans, only to have it ruined at 3 weeks notice isn't fair. They've had ample time to cater for business needs.
I work on a 3x8 hour Mon-Fri shift pattern. There's seven of us in a similar role and the company wants at least 50% of people in.
My holiday entitlement this year was 8 statutory holidays, which include 25th and 28th Dec, then the 1st and 4th of Jan. I also had 28 days of holidays, which I've saved for the Christmas period off.
So they weren't approved? My boss is really bad in that he only ever approves the holidays on a month by month basis, not at the time they are requested.
I'd put in for these holidays months ago, but like always he waited until the end of November to look at December holidays.
He does the same every month, then always approves them.
I appreciate the use them or lose them idea, I also understand about holidays at the company's discretion due to needs, however I feel after giving months of notice, made my Christmas and New year plans, only to have it ruined at 3 weeks notice isn't fair. They've had ample time to cater for business needs.
I work on a 3x8 hour Mon-Fri shift pattern. There's seven of us in a similar role and the company wants at least 50% of people in.
My holiday entitlement this year was 8 statutory holidays, which include 25th and 28th Dec, then the 1st and 4th of Jan. I also had 28 days of holidays, which I've saved for the Christmas period off.
If you value this job then I wouldn't adopt the "up yours" approach some are suggesting, will likely end in tears. I sympathise with the situation, it's very poor practice to be so inefficient in managing holiday authorisation and isn't conducive to a happy team. Your only real recourse is to negotiate stating the delay from request to refusal and it's impact removing all emotion from the discussion keeping to the facts. Good luck.
How many days in total has the OP taken off so far this year?
I assume the issue is that everyone wants to be off over the Christmas period, and one of our teams has had issues with that. Its an online booking system and you choose who authorises the leave, ie your line manager, or someone more senior than them. So members of one team have taken advantage to get senior people to authorise their time off and the outcome is all the team have booked time off so some days are not covered. Its now being unravelled.
Reality is of course far better for the team to discuss it and try to arrange it so people work when they want to, and to allow people to take turns to have the whole period off if they want.
Personally I'll be off however mobile will be on so I can deal with any issues that need attention.
I assume the issue is that everyone wants to be off over the Christmas period, and one of our teams has had issues with that. Its an online booking system and you choose who authorises the leave, ie your line manager, or someone more senior than them. So members of one team have taken advantage to get senior people to authorise their time off and the outcome is all the team have booked time off so some days are not covered. Its now being unravelled.
Reality is of course far better for the team to discuss it and try to arrange it so people work when they want to, and to allow people to take turns to have the whole period off if they want.
Personally I'll be off however mobile will be on so I can deal with any issues that need attention.
I've saved 4 days and planned to have Christmas eve off, then with the statutory holidays I'd be right off until the 5th Jan.
I spoke to my boss the other day to make it clear I needed it.
Although I don't have an official agreement, I share care with my ex with my daughter. It's every other weekend and I take her during holidays too.
I'm also 2.5-3 hours away from her home, so it's not as if I can nip back and forward from work and make the best of it.
I spoke to my boss the other day to make it clear I needed it.
Although I don't have an official agreement, I share care with my ex with my daughter. It's every other weekend and I take her during holidays too.
I'm also 2.5-3 hours away from her home, so it's not as if I can nip back and forward from work and make the best of it.
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