Overcoming ISA and Lane Assist etc on post July 2024 Cars
Discussion
Hi All - so this topic has been debated a lot. For me, the questions remain:
1. What will it take to un-code this so that it's off by default for UK cars? Is it likely to be just an OBD programmer for most cars?
2. I presume, since it's not a legal requirement in the UK (or so I understand) that there will be no legal issues with making that change.
3. I presume also that this would not be a warranty threatening move since it's a software config change.
4. Affect of that un-coding on insurance cover? Is there any word that UK insurers would take umbrage?
Would be interested in peoples opinions...
Cheers,
J.
1. What will it take to un-code this so that it's off by default for UK cars? Is it likely to be just an OBD programmer for most cars?
2. I presume, since it's not a legal requirement in the UK (or so I understand) that there will be no legal issues with making that change.
3. I presume also that this would not be a warranty threatening move since it's a software config change.
4. Affect of that un-coding on insurance cover? Is there any word that UK insurers would take umbrage?
Would be interested in peoples opinions...
Cheers,
J.
trickywoo said:
I would very much expect a manufacturer to try and use coding out as a reason to avoid a warranty claim.
Sure but is that likely to succeed? They couldn't claim that it would risk the electrical/mechanical systems of the car. I don't see the justification for that if tested legally. And I'm not suggesting disablement of the systems concerned...just changing the default behaviour to being off from start.The interesting thing is simply whether it’s ready for the UK roads. Potholes, pedestrians, cyclists etc are all put in danger by these systems.
What if a car’s ACAS systems could be directly implicated in a collision, by preventing a driver from taking evasive action at a critical moment.
Who do you sue? The driver, manufacturer or legislative body that imposes the system?
What if a car’s ACAS systems could be directly implicated in a collision, by preventing a driver from taking evasive action at a critical moment.
Who do you sue? The driver, manufacturer or legislative body that imposes the system?
As somewhat involved in the topic...
The requirement for ISA is a UNECE requirement falling under GSR II regulations
1) It currently applies to EU type approval
2) It does not apply in GB as GSR II has not been adopted. Note that it *does* apply in Northern Ireland, somewhat complicating things.
3) Manufacturers who build cars in Europe so far have been reluctant to "code it out" for GB cars, as most of them currently rely on a EU certification which gets (in simple terms) copied across for a GB Type Approval. As the CoC document printed when the car rolls off the factory has an EU type approval number, they must technically meet those requirements when they're built. This will continue as long as manufacturers still use the EU type approval as their basis. Once the scheme runs out in a couple of years and a GB type approval is required, then you may see slight divergence in spec/logic.
4) UK manufacturers who build cars here and have GB type approval and directly already print CoCs with the GB Type Approval number on it can easily not have this feature on by default, but so far it seems they're not using this freedom....
3) As it is not required by GB type approval, the "default setting" of ISA can be disabled before registration in UK without any issues not withstanding the above concerns of EU-type aproved and manufactured cars.
4) ISA "default setting" can also be disabled after registration without any legal issues. Worth asking your manufacturer to disable it via a service fix (I suspect all will have a complete variety of responses to this!!)
5) Disabling it yourself (or via third party) via coding will have the same impact as coding anything else out on a car with regards to warranty. It should not affect any hardware warranty claim, but if your car has a module or electrical fault, then it could be a factor (which is fair as there is no guarantee that during coding some bizarre network message or other unwanted side effect doesn't take place).
6) I wouldn't have thought that disabling the default setting flag would make any difference to the insurance as it's a system taht even by it's legal definition needs to be able to turned off ("driver in full control at all times"), but I work on the auto side of things and not insurance so someone else will be best placed to advise.
Lane keeping is under different regulations and is trickier as that part of UNECE has been adopted into GB type approval requirements. So anything Pre-Registration is out. Post-registration as above, as technically not part of C&U regs.
The requirement for ISA is a UNECE requirement falling under GSR II regulations
1) It currently applies to EU type approval
2) It does not apply in GB as GSR II has not been adopted. Note that it *does* apply in Northern Ireland, somewhat complicating things.
3) Manufacturers who build cars in Europe so far have been reluctant to "code it out" for GB cars, as most of them currently rely on a EU certification which gets (in simple terms) copied across for a GB Type Approval. As the CoC document printed when the car rolls off the factory has an EU type approval number, they must technically meet those requirements when they're built. This will continue as long as manufacturers still use the EU type approval as their basis. Once the scheme runs out in a couple of years and a GB type approval is required, then you may see slight divergence in spec/logic.
4) UK manufacturers who build cars here and have GB type approval and directly already print CoCs with the GB Type Approval number on it can easily not have this feature on by default, but so far it seems they're not using this freedom....
3) As it is not required by GB type approval, the "default setting" of ISA can be disabled before registration in UK without any issues not withstanding the above concerns of EU-type aproved and manufactured cars.
4) ISA "default setting" can also be disabled after registration without any legal issues. Worth asking your manufacturer to disable it via a service fix (I suspect all will have a complete variety of responses to this!!)
5) Disabling it yourself (or via third party) via coding will have the same impact as coding anything else out on a car with regards to warranty. It should not affect any hardware warranty claim, but if your car has a module or electrical fault, then it could be a factor (which is fair as there is no guarantee that during coding some bizarre network message or other unwanted side effect doesn't take place).
6) I wouldn't have thought that disabling the default setting flag would make any difference to the insurance as it's a system taht even by it's legal definition needs to be able to turned off ("driver in full control at all times"), but I work on the auto side of things and not insurance so someone else will be best placed to advise.
Lane keeping is under different regulations and is trickier as that part of UNECE has been adopted into GB type approval requirements. So anything Pre-Registration is out. Post-registration as above, as technically not part of C&U regs.
georgeyboy12345 said:
What the frig is ISA? I know I have one with my bank, but didn’t know cars had them
Intrusive Steering Annoyance.I’m all for it on a motorway with light traffic - self drive is genuinely gamechanging on long trips, but it’s simply too dangerous on smaller potholed cyclist-infested roads. There should be a mandated on/off switch. I’m a grown up and would like to operate machinery myself, using my eyes and brain.
Intelligent Speed Assist
It’s the function that shows you when you’re over the posted speed limit. It also has a speed limited function in the regulation (but this part of it is default off)
By default on it will have a visual and audible warning that you’re above the speed limit. Usually a pulsating speed limit sign and a bong or “whoom whoom” sound.
It’s the function that shows you when you’re over the posted speed limit. It also has a speed limited function in the regulation (but this part of it is default off)
By default on it will have a visual and audible warning that you’re above the speed limit. Usually a pulsating speed limit sign and a bong or “whoom whoom” sound.
SuperPav said:
Intelligent Speed Assist
It’s the function that shows you when you’re over the posted speed limit. It also has a speed limited function in the regulation (but this part of it is default off)
By default on it will have a visual and audible warning that you’re above the speed limit. Usually a pulsating speed limit sign and a bong or “whoom whoom” sound.
Ah. If it works like 2019-21 cars it'll pick up 30mph limits on slip roads, 50mph limits stuck to the backs of trucks, and other random crap. It’s the function that shows you when you’re over the posted speed limit. It also has a speed limited function in the regulation (but this part of it is default off)
By default on it will have a visual and audible warning that you’re above the speed limit. Usually a pulsating speed limit sign and a bong or “whoom whoom” sound.
That'll be a real safety bonus, having flashing dashboard limits and audible bonging distracting drivers.
Lane assist isn't a problem if it's been programmed correctly.
I had a 2021 Honda and it was awful, had to be switched off on country roads as it would try and drive you head on into oncoming traffic or panic and think you were about to drive off the road when it was narrow.
Yet, I've driven various VW/Skodas from 2020-2022 and not really a problem with them. A good system shouldn't have to be switched off.
Even better is the 2023 Toyota system, it very rarely gets things wrong and that's with lots of unmarked narrow roads over thousands of miles. It knows there is a car in your lane up ahead that you are going to have to move out to pass, so doesn't warn you that you have crossed a line.
However, I have yet to find a manufacture with a decent speed sign assist system. Camera based systems don't work well at all as most roads aren't signed sufficiently. I've spent many miles driving on the motorway with the speed limit sign on the dash still thinking the limit is 20 from the service area I stopped at. Limits on the sat nav/apple CarPlay are more reliable.
Thankfully in my 23 Toyota you just get the speed limit turning red in the dash, on some you get a bong sound as well. You can actually turn mine off and it will stay off every restart but some are on every time now with the new rules.
If you code out things from the car, particularly where they relate to computer controlled steering assist, you are likely to have both warranty and insurance issues. You can code out stop/start and that should be fine but anything related to steering may cause issues.
I had a 2021 Honda and it was awful, had to be switched off on country roads as it would try and drive you head on into oncoming traffic or panic and think you were about to drive off the road when it was narrow.
Yet, I've driven various VW/Skodas from 2020-2022 and not really a problem with them. A good system shouldn't have to be switched off.
Even better is the 2023 Toyota system, it very rarely gets things wrong and that's with lots of unmarked narrow roads over thousands of miles. It knows there is a car in your lane up ahead that you are going to have to move out to pass, so doesn't warn you that you have crossed a line.
However, I have yet to find a manufacture with a decent speed sign assist system. Camera based systems don't work well at all as most roads aren't signed sufficiently. I've spent many miles driving on the motorway with the speed limit sign on the dash still thinking the limit is 20 from the service area I stopped at. Limits on the sat nav/apple CarPlay are more reliable.
Thankfully in my 23 Toyota you just get the speed limit turning red in the dash, on some you get a bong sound as well. You can actually turn mine off and it will stay off every restart but some are on every time now with the new rules.
If you code out things from the car, particularly where they relate to computer controlled steering assist, you are likely to have both warranty and insurance issues. You can code out stop/start and that should be fine but anything related to steering may cause issues.
Aren’t cars given insurance ratings based on how many ‘safety’ systems they have these days?
ISA being one of them, even though it can be (currently) turned off.
I believe part of it is also there is data constantly sent from the system. Exactly to whom in the EU who knows. Maybe because we are not in the EU this ‘black box’ element is turned off, I’d guess it isn’t though. Apparently this data is anonymous…
ISA being one of them, even though it can be (currently) turned off.
I believe part of it is also there is data constantly sent from the system. Exactly to whom in the EU who knows. Maybe because we are not in the EU this ‘black box’ element is turned off, I’d guess it isn’t though. Apparently this data is anonymous…
You can only hope these features are coded in the usual way rather than hard coded into the firmware.
Dealers are unlikely to change the settings even if they could because... insert any reason so you are stuck waiting for a 3rd party to work it out, bit like remaps, etc.
We are in the half way house where the 'safety' features are intrusive, not that good and annoying but not good enough to take the driver out of the loop.
Dealers are unlikely to change the settings even if they could because... insert any reason so you are stuck waiting for a 3rd party to work it out, bit like remaps, etc.
We are in the half way house where the 'safety' features are intrusive, not that good and annoying but not good enough to take the driver out of the loop.
I’ve just driven back from a hospital that had a 10mph site limit. My 2021 car was flashing a 5mph speed limit on the dash display from there, a couple of miles along the 30mph A6, and onto a 40mph road before it sussed the correct limit was 40. If it had been bonging at me for all that distance it’d be on Autotrader or on fire by now.
We will need a lot of extra road signs for this to work correctly.
We will need a lot of extra road signs for this to work correctly.
Robertb said:
The interesting thing is simply whether it’s ready for the UK roads. Potholes, pedestrians, cyclists etc are all put in danger by these systems.
What if a car’s ACAS systems could be directly implicated in a collision, by preventing a driver from taking evasive action at a critical moment.
Who do you sue? The driver, manufacturer or legislative body that imposes the system?
Surely potholes, pedestrians and cyclists exist in other countries too?What if a car’s ACAS systems could be directly implicated in a collision, by preventing a driver from taking evasive action at a critical moment.
Who do you sue? The driver, manufacturer or legislative body that imposes the system?
My 2023 BMW has lane assist on by default and it's hopeless so I turn it off by default when I get in. Thankfully my car just missed the audio bongs for speed limits as I genuinely think I would go spare listening to that.
It uses a camera to see the speed limits which works 90% of the time but the 0ther 10% it often thinks the limit is 40 on a motorway or similar, utterly infuriating.
It uses a camera to see the speed limits which works 90% of the time but the 0ther 10% it often thinks the limit is 40 on a motorway or similar, utterly infuriating.
My two "modern safety systems can be dangerous at times" tales are from a hire car (a 2021 Peugeot 3008 I think) which had both brake assist (auto stopping if you don't brake) and lane assist (stops you drifting out of lane).
Both of these systems were completely new to me at the time and this was the first time I'd ever driven a car with them and within 2 days both had nearly caused accidents.
1. Brake Assist - On a dual carriage way there was traffic on the slip road and the car thought I was going to hit the rear most van on it as I drove past in the left lane. I wasn't but the car took away my control of the car and slammed on the brakes to an emergency stop without giving me any warning before it did it, which not only scared the living crap out of me, but also removed an element of driver control as I now had to control a "squirming under brakes" car without having the mental headstart that you get when YOU are the one jumping on the brakes. Luckily there was nothing close enough behind me to be forced to stop or crash into me.
2. Lane Assist - On a country road I went to overtake a cyclist but, as there was no traffic, I didn't use my indicator. As I started to move over the white line to pass the cyclist the car once more took away my control of the car and physically turned the steering wheel back into my lane and towards the cyclist, again without any warning (no lights, bongs etc) which again led to what I felt was a dangerous situation.
I understand that these things can be a huge safety bonus, I do, but anything that takes away my direct control of the car "without warning" I think is dangerous. Now, to be fair, as it was a hire car I have no idea if there "should" have been some warning bongs/lights but they were inhibited by a previous driver or if the 3008 even comes with lights/bongs but I am absolutely 100% certain that in both occasions there was zero warning from the car before if took away my control.
Both of these systems were completely new to me at the time and this was the first time I'd ever driven a car with them and within 2 days both had nearly caused accidents.
1. Brake Assist - On a dual carriage way there was traffic on the slip road and the car thought I was going to hit the rear most van on it as I drove past in the left lane. I wasn't but the car took away my control of the car and slammed on the brakes to an emergency stop without giving me any warning before it did it, which not only scared the living crap out of me, but also removed an element of driver control as I now had to control a "squirming under brakes" car without having the mental headstart that you get when YOU are the one jumping on the brakes. Luckily there was nothing close enough behind me to be forced to stop or crash into me.
2. Lane Assist - On a country road I went to overtake a cyclist but, as there was no traffic, I didn't use my indicator. As I started to move over the white line to pass the cyclist the car once more took away my control of the car and physically turned the steering wheel back into my lane and towards the cyclist, again without any warning (no lights, bongs etc) which again led to what I felt was a dangerous situation.
I understand that these things can be a huge safety bonus, I do, but anything that takes away my direct control of the car "without warning" I think is dangerous. Now, to be fair, as it was a hire car I have no idea if there "should" have been some warning bongs/lights but they were inhibited by a previous driver or if the 3008 even comes with lights/bongs but I am absolutely 100% certain that in both occasions there was zero warning from the car before if took away my control.
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