Grade 2 listed - what’s allowed?
Discussion
I have been asked to refurbish a shower room in a grade 2 listed house. At present, the room contains a shower & basin.
The work to be carried out involves repositioning the shower, adding a toilet, closing the existing doorway (from the landing) & forming a new doorway through a solid wall from a bedroom, making it an en-suite.
Possibly asking the obvious, but is permission required for this, due to its listed status & who needs approaching to get the permission?
Thanks
The work to be carried out involves repositioning the shower, adding a toilet, closing the existing doorway (from the landing) & forming a new doorway through a solid wall from a bedroom, making it an en-suite.
Possibly asking the obvious, but is permission required for this, due to its listed status & who needs approaching to get the permission?
Thanks
craigjm said:
...you can change the bathroom as long as the bathroom fittings themselves are not part of the listing
There is no such thing as 'part of the listing'. The actual listing will probably only be a few paragraphs long and does not go into great detail. It certainly does not itemise every feature of importance.The whole building (and its curtilage) is Listed.
the Listed Buildings and Conservation Areas Act 1990 said:
...no person shall execute or cause to be executed any works for the demolition of a listed building or for its alteration or extension in any manner which would affect its character as a building of special architectural or historic interest, unless the works are authorised.
(my bold)As to what is deemed to affect its character as a building of special architectural or historic interest, that's best not to second-guess (if the bathroom fittings were original or period, they may very well be deemed to be protected).
If in doubt, speak to the Conservation Officer at your Local Authority (who is also the person you need to approach for permission, although if he or she thinks that the changes require approval, they will ask you to submit a formal 'Listed Building Consent' application.
Seek permission from the Conservation Officer.
Listed Grade II (assuming it's not II*) is the lowest level of protection and therefore the most leeway can be given. If it's just swapping reasonably contemporary fittings for newer ones then it's very likely permission will be given, so no harm in asking: permission granted: all good.
However you mention adding a toilet, and the soil pipe for this may need to affect the building in some way (imagine a brand new 4" plastic pipe down the front of an otherwise unblemished Georgian property), and this is very likely to be denied.
Present the CO with as much detail as you can about the extent of changes, particularly with anything that affects the external appearance of the building or internal structure and/or any fittings present at the date of the listed status being granted (they don't have to be original to the building itself).
Listed Grade II (assuming it's not II*) is the lowest level of protection and therefore the most leeway can be given. If it's just swapping reasonably contemporary fittings for newer ones then it's very likely permission will be given, so no harm in asking: permission granted: all good.
However you mention adding a toilet, and the soil pipe for this may need to affect the building in some way (imagine a brand new 4" plastic pipe down the front of an otherwise unblemished Georgian property), and this is very likely to be denied.
Present the CO with as much detail as you can about the extent of changes, particularly with anything that affects the external appearance of the building or internal structure and/or any fittings present at the date of the listed status being granted (they don't have to be original to the building itself).
craigjm said:
The doorway change probably needs listed building consent. Other than that you can change the bathroom as long as the bathroom fittings themselves are not part of the listing
Wrong.But you can do an awful lot of things you really shouldn't as no-one will ever know what is actually listed upon a later inspection. Unless you have sneaky neighbours.
We live in a G2 listed house and have done lots of work to it over the years.
When we first bought it the Heritage officer came round at our request as we wanted to do things by the book.
It does seem that not every Heritage officer / council has identical views though.
Anything like changing internal bathrooms and even resiting within did not require permission.
Any changes to walls internally like creating a door opening did.
Anything visible from the outside did.
Like for like replacement and visible outside we were told to phone her first and get a view.
We’ve not needed work doing for about 5 years now so whether this is even still possible I know not.
When we first bought it the Heritage officer came round at our request as we wanted to do things by the book.
It does seem that not every Heritage officer / council has identical views though.
Anything like changing internal bathrooms and even resiting within did not require permission.
Any changes to walls internally like creating a door opening did.
Anything visible from the outside did.
Like for like replacement and visible outside we were told to phone her first and get a view.
We’ve not needed work doing for about 5 years now so whether this is even still possible I know not.
rlw said:
craigjm said:
The doorway change probably needs listed building consent. Other than that you can change the bathroom as long as the bathroom fittings themselves are not part of the listing
Wrong.But you can do an awful lot of things you really shouldn't as no-one will ever know what is actually listed upon a later inspection. Unless you have sneaky neighbours.
As for the comment above about fittings not being listed. Tell that to a friend of mine who was unable to change his bathroom in his listed arts and crafts house because the listing specifically stated that the bathroom was “of importance”.
What you can and can’t do is very much dictated by how much of a f
k your local authority gives Thanks for all the comments.
I hadn’t considered if the house was listed, when originally discussing the work, but when thinking what an impressive building it is, I checked & the owner said it was G2 listed.
We’re going to check with the Conservation Officer, as want to adhere to the regs.
I hadn’t considered if the house was listed, when originally discussing the work, but when thinking what an impressive building it is, I checked & the owner said it was G2 listed.
We’re going to check with the Conservation Officer, as want to adhere to the regs.
craigjm said:
As for the comment above about fittings not being listed. Tell that to a friend of mine who was unable to change his bathroom in his listed arts and crafts house because the listing specifically stated that the bathroom was “of importance”.
I don't think anyone has said fittings aren't listed. For example, I specifically mentioned "swapping reasonably contemporary fittings for newer ones...very likely permission will be given".craigjm said:
What you can and can’t do is very much dictated by how much of a fk your local authority gives
What you can and can't do is very much dictated by the listed status, what you want to do, and to a small extent the peccadillos of the CO.Your friend's example is a particularly egregious example of someone wanting to ignore the listed status of their house, particularly if the listing has gone to the unusual extent of specifically mentioning as protected the thing they want to change...
There are no rigid rules, despite however many individual anecdotes people bring to the listed building experience.
Brinyan said:
... I checked & the owner said it was G2 listed.
We’re going to check with the Conservation Officer, as want to adhere to the regs.
You can do an initial check yourself HERE (where you can also view as many actual listings as you care to, and thereby recognise what nonsense it is to suggest that you can do what you like so long as the feature isn't specifically mentioned as 'part of the listing').We’re going to check with the Conservation Officer, as want to adhere to the regs.
Do be careful though: there's something called 'curtilage listing' which means (in very simple terms) that if a building fell within the curtilage of another building when that other building was listed, then it effectively shares the listed status even if it's sold on separately, later. It doesn't get it's own entry on the list, however, and the location map attached to the listing doesn't show the 'curtilage', so this is easy to miss.
I'm actually in the middle of looking at a building where this applied (a building that previously formed part of Listing no. 1156043, if you wish to look it up, but which is now a separate house in its own right). Unfortunately, the owner had never heard of 'Curtilage Listing', when they completely refurbished the property, so is currently busy lubing themselves up in preparation for the Conservation Officer's visit.
PhilboSE said:
Seek permission from the Conservation Officer.
Listed Grade II (assuming it's not II*) is the lowest level of protection and therefore the most leeway can be given. If it's just swapping reasonably contemporary fittings for newer ones then it's very likely permission will be given, so no harm in asking: permission granted: all good.
However you mention adding a toilet, and the soil pipe for this may need to affect the building in some way (imagine a brand new 4" plastic pipe down the front of an otherwise unblemished Georgian property), and this is very likely to be denied.
Present the CO with as much detail as you can about the extent of changes, particularly with anything that affects the external appearance of the building or internal structure and/or any fittings present at the date of the listed status being granted (they don't have to be original to the building itself).
Why is it down to you to ask these sorts of questions and potentially end up dealing with a total loon with the power of life and death for the project.Listed Grade II (assuming it's not II*) is the lowest level of protection and therefore the most leeway can be given. If it's just swapping reasonably contemporary fittings for newer ones then it's very likely permission will be given, so no harm in asking: permission granted: all good.
However you mention adding a toilet, and the soil pipe for this may need to affect the building in some way (imagine a brand new 4" plastic pipe down the front of an otherwise unblemished Georgian property), and this is very likely to be denied.
Present the CO with as much detail as you can about the extent of changes, particularly with anything that affects the external appearance of the building or internal structure and/or any fittings present at the date of the listed status being granted (they don't have to be original to the building itself).
Let the homeowner deal with all that crap.
Some conservation officers are very reasonable but others, well you can imagine..
I know several people with Listed Buildings and their experiences cover both extremes and everything in between including being promised a grant if they used period correct materials and getting screwed over to the tune of £30k as a result.
Edited by FMOB on Thursday 25th April 18:28
Equus said:
Brinyan said:
... I checked & the owner said it was G2 listed.
We’re going to check with the Conservation Officer, as want to adhere to the regs.
You can do an initial check yourself HERE (where you can also view as many actual listings as you care to, and thereby recognise what nonsense it is to suggest that you can do what you like so long as the feature isn't specifically mentioned as 'part of the listing').We’re going to check with the Conservation Officer, as want to adhere to the regs.
Do be careful though: there's something called 'curtilage listing' which means (in very simple terms) that if a building fell within the curtilage of another building when that other building was listed, then it effectively shares the listed status even if it's sold on separately, later. It doesn't get it's own entry on the list, however, and the location map attached to the listing doesn't show the 'curtilage', so this is easy to miss.
I'm actually in the middle of looking at a building where this applied (a building that previously formed part of Listing no. 1156043, if you wish to look it up, but which is now a separate house in its own right). Unfortunately, the owner had never heard of 'Curtilage Listing', when they completely refurbished the property, so is currently busy lubing themselves up in preparation for the Conservation Officer's visit.
The owner is on the case. Even if it delays the work, both her & I want to abide to the regs.
craigjm said:
rlw said:
craigjm said:
The doorway change probably needs listed building consent. Other than that you can change the bathroom as long as the bathroom fittings themselves are not part of the listing
Wrong.But you can do an awful lot of things you really shouldn't as no-one will ever know what is actually listed upon a later inspection. Unless you have sneaky neighbours.
As for the comment above about fittings not being listed. Tell that to a friend of mine who was unable to change his bathroom in his listed arts and crafts house because the listing specifically stated that the bathroom was “of importance”.
What you can and can’t do is very much dictated by how much of a f
k your local authority gives Our house is GII listed, we've been here 14 years and so far, I've got 7 big items through listed building consent, and the CO said that we didn't need LBC on a further 5 major items following discussions. What I've learned throughout these is that the priority of the CO is precisely what their job title is, conservation of the building and its historic fabric. Whatever you want to do to the building, you need to demonstrate its benefit to the building. If you go in with your aim being to improve your own comfort and a desire to change due to your taste, then you won't get anywhere. How and why is this change going to help preserve this building? Those are the questions you need to think and those are the terms in which to write your LBC application in.
The very simple things you need to consider are:
Is the change going to damage the existing fabric? Any demolition of a wall to create a new door, by definition, is damage to the fabric. If there's any damage, what benefit will this damage bring to the building? Is the damage such that the benefit of the damage outweighs its harm? This can be something as simple as making a part of the building more useable and accessible, bringing it into everyday use and restoring it, so that it doesn't fall into disrepair (again). We had exactly that issue with one of our applications which was granted to knock through a door from the main house to an external first floor store, converting it to an en suite and dressing room for Little QQ3.
Is the change in line with the historic changes that have happened in the history of the building, and therefore continuing with its natural historic evolution, or is it a complete step change? Many COs will allow buildings to continue to evolve as long as it's not a huge leap, so you may be able to demonstrate that the changes are in keeping with the history of the property.
Is the change easily reversible, especially without damaging the original fabric?
Can you limit the damage?
Once again, what is the overall benefit to the property for these work to be done?
If you can find a way of answering those questions without saying "because we like/want them like that...", and you're pretty much home and dry.
A while back I was helping my mate with a plastering job on a grade 2 listed building (large and beautiful old priory) it had a 70's style extension. Owner had some made to order skirting board that he wanted fitting into the extension to keep some continuity between the main house. The conservation officer made an unannounced visit and the owner quite proudly told her what it was for. World War 3 erupted when she told him 
it had to remain as bog standard Bullnose 
it had to remain as bog standard Bullnose dickymint said:
A while back I was helping my mate with a plastering job on a grade 2 listed building (large and beautiful old priory) it had a 70's style extension. Owner had some made to order skirting board that he wanted fitting into the extension to keep some continuity between the main house. The conservation officer made an unannounced visit and the owner quite proudly told her what it was for. World War 3 erupted when she told him it had to remain as bog standard Bullnose
A lot of permissions when given, stipulate that the extension should be obvious from the original building i think so its not uncommon. it had to remain as bog standard Bullnose dudleybloke said:
One of my old flats was in a listed building and in a heritage zone, the listing only applied to the frontage of the building though and was all modern inside.
Listing is not "just for the outside" except in very rare cases where a wall may be protected. Interior being modern is no guide or confirmation that the inside of the building is "not listed", many people have fallen foul of rules by making that mistake.Here's how Historic England, who administer the listing scheme in England & Wales so should know a thing or two about it, say on the matter:
Historic England said:
What parts of the building does listing cover?
Listing covers a whole building, including the interior, unless parts of it are specifically excluded in the list description.
You can find the exact information from Historic England HEREListing covers a whole building, including the interior, unless parts of it are specifically excluded in the list description.
Our house is quite modern inside in certain parts, but has period features in others. Never, ever assume that because the interior is modern, the listing must only apply to the exterior. That can be a very expensive mistake.
119 said:
A lot of permissions when given, stipulate that the extension should be obvious from the original building i think so its not uncommon.
I've never understood why the extension should obviously appear to be a later addition. The house and the extension are 'Listed' , that presumably means that they are on a LIST.And so if somebody in the future wants to know if the extension is 'original' to the main house, they can simply search the List
and find the answer.
This relates to modern thinking in architecture that any building or extension should clearly be ‘of its time’ and visibly so in terms of its design.
Attempts to recreate or match period styles are often condemned as ‘pastiche’ and the result is a favouring of contemporary styles that make little effort to replicate the detail of the host building.
Attempts to recreate or match period styles are often condemned as ‘pastiche’ and the result is a favouring of contemporary styles that make little effort to replicate the detail of the host building.
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