ST 205 GT-FOUR advice needed. please help.
Discussion
I owned a GT4 once... and I miss it. Of all the cars I have driven and owned over the years the GT4 was the only perfect car for me. I drive mainly in London and it is the best car for our roads, i.e. speed bumps, dug up roads, rain, speed cameras, etc. It was fast enough, handled well enough and utterly reliable. The 16" wheels with 45 tyres are exactly what I need for how screwed up our roads are right now... I am looking to buy one again after all these years and need some advice as there seem to be endless variants on sale on ebay, autotrader and, of course pistonheads. Please advise me on the following.
There are lots of cars out there with rear wings that i don't like. How much will it cost to remove them and fit the WRC wing? Where can I get one of those wings? How much will it cost? If I get it painted in the same colour as the car will it look like it was always on there to begin with or will it look bolted on and painted to a close enough colour? Will there be holes left on the boot if the car used to have a 3 point connected wing on the back? Same for side skirts - are they easy to have removed? Also how easy and expensive will it be for me to source the dark grey 16" tri-spokes that came with the first ST205s as stndard? So many of the cars out there have been hit with the ugly stick, especially the jap imports... just sad for me to see such a well balanced car modded into ugliness. Also, should I be worried about rust as many of these cars are over 10 years old? Speaking of which - what exactly should I be worried about on these? Is it worth paying the RAC or AA for a test (it's 150 quid i think) as I don't know anything about cars except how to drive them. Currently I think I am willing to spend up to 4500 on it, but I want a low mileage car, so should I believe some of these jap imports that claim to have 30-40k mileages on them even though they LOOK to me like they are in bad condition? What should I be willing to pay a premium for and what makes no difference at all. A standard 240bhp GT4 will do me fine, but I keep seeing WRC versions from japan advertised with 255bhp. Is it worth getting these cars? What exactly is different on the WRC cars? Is it just increased turbo boost? Currently I think I don't want a car with higher boost as it probably means the car has been "worn" more. Am I right in this assumption?
Any help answering these question will be much appreciated. I am in the rare condition of knowing exactly what it is that I want, but I'm a bit scared of buying such a comparatively old car, particularly if it's modded, imported, etc. Should I be?
Thanks in advance
There are lots of cars out there with rear wings that i don't like. How much will it cost to remove them and fit the WRC wing? Where can I get one of those wings? How much will it cost? If I get it painted in the same colour as the car will it look like it was always on there to begin with or will it look bolted on and painted to a close enough colour? Will there be holes left on the boot if the car used to have a 3 point connected wing on the back? Same for side skirts - are they easy to have removed? Also how easy and expensive will it be for me to source the dark grey 16" tri-spokes that came with the first ST205s as stndard? So many of the cars out there have been hit with the ugly stick, especially the jap imports... just sad for me to see such a well balanced car modded into ugliness. Also, should I be worried about rust as many of these cars are over 10 years old? Speaking of which - what exactly should I be worried about on these? Is it worth paying the RAC or AA for a test (it's 150 quid i think) as I don't know anything about cars except how to drive them. Currently I think I am willing to spend up to 4500 on it, but I want a low mileage car, so should I believe some of these jap imports that claim to have 30-40k mileages on them even though they LOOK to me like they are in bad condition? What should I be willing to pay a premium for and what makes no difference at all. A standard 240bhp GT4 will do me fine, but I keep seeing WRC versions from japan advertised with 255bhp. Is it worth getting these cars? What exactly is different on the WRC cars? Is it just increased turbo boost? Currently I think I don't want a car with higher boost as it probably means the car has been "worn" more. Am I right in this assumption?
Any help answering these question will be much appreciated. I am in the rare condition of knowing exactly what it is that I want, but I'm a bit scared of buying such a comparatively old car, particularly if it's modded, imported, etc. Should I be?
Thanks in advance
Shamelessly nicked from www.gt4oc.com ...... Lots of good info on there.
ST205 Buyer's Guide
This page is intended as a guide to one or two things to look for when buying your ST205 GT-Four. It isn't exhaustive, but should provide you with an idea of the sort of things that can go wrong with the car. Although there are very few 'common' problems, remember that the first examples are nearing 10 years old so can be prone to little niggles.
Initial impressions
The ST205 is not prone to rust more than any other car, but do check anyway in all the usual places. One thing I think it's important to look out for in any performance car is accident damage - inexperienced drivers with fast cars can end up off the road quite easily. Look at the car panels, see if any look a slightly different colour, or don't sound like they are pure metal when you tap them. Also, get underneath the car e.g. at the back and see if the metal support beams are intact - an unscrupulous seller may try to replace a bumper skin but leave bent chassis parts.
Ask when the timing belt has been changed. It should occur every 60k miles.
Open the engine bay and check the general condition. Open the radiator and oil caps, check that the stuff inside doesn't look frothy or scummy (could indicate head gasket problems).
Get in the car and check the state of the wheel and pedals compared to the stated mileage as some jap imports may have been 'altered', a worn wheel will tell you the mileage a doctored odometer may try to hide.
The gearbox in the ST205 is extremely strong, with some serious modifiers running over 600 bhp through it. Things to look out for are a sloppy gearshift characterised by excessive front-back play in the stick. This is often caused by worn bushes in the shifter cables connecting the stick and gearbox. New cables are not far off £200.
Before you start the car, check the engine ECU for any error codes. Follow my procedure here to do this, and make sure there are no codes stored.
The Drive
If this is a private sale then you may not be able to drive yourself, if it is a trade sale you must insist upon it. If a private sale, as well as the checks below, see how the owner treats the car - a turbo car MUST be warmed up to operating temperature before it is thrashed, and must be allowed to cool down for a minute or two after a hard run. if the current owner can not be bothered to do this then steer well clear.
At startup look at the exhaust. Some smoke at initial startup which eventually disappears will indicate worn valve stem seals (though this is unusual). Listen to the engine, a dull rattle which disappears after the car is warmed up can indicate worn main/big end bearings which unless fixed will lead to engine failure. However if there is a high-pitched tinkle which also disappears this could be something simple to fix such as a leaky exhaust manifold requiring tightening.
The engine is very strong, but like all turbo cars there can be problems. The temperature needle should, once the car is warmed up, never rise above just under the horizontal. If it does then start to worry.
Drive off and start listening. The ST205 superstrut suspension is a superior and advanced design, but does suffer from one major problem. After approximately 60-80k miles, there are two main bushes that wear out on each side, though not usually together. They are at the chassis end of the front track-rod, and also on a figure-of-eight piece attaching this rod to the suspension strut. You can tell there is something wrong by the characterictic clunks over potholes/bumps etc - it is a deep, structural sort of clunk rather than something rattling. Often it is more pronounced when turning sharply, and may be evident when first turning the wheel after the car has been parked for a while. This will cost over £500 per side to fix with parts from Toyota, though one of the guys in the GT4 Owner's Club UK does refurbish the parts for less.
Drive the car at full steering lock (both directions) at low speed, and check that there is no low rumbling noise (will be evident in 1 direction only probably) as this can indicate a worn wheel bearing. Only £50 for the part but needs fitting.
Get into cruising speed and listen for clunks from the rear of the car when you put your foot down or take it off the accelerator. This could indicate a worn rear differential mount, another £200 or so.
Because this is a car with serious power and serious traction from the 4WD, the clutch doesn't have a huge lifespan. After 50-60k miles you must always be a little worried whether the clutch is worn. At 40 mph in 3rd, step on the gas and see if the revs suddenly shoot up without apparently applying any tractive force to the wheels. The clutch will be around £200 for a stock item or more for an aftermarket one, plus between £200-400 for fitting.
Now find a straight piece of road, and in 3rd gear at 2000 rpm give it some beans (i.e. put your foot down!). If the seller will not let you give the car a quick thrashing then walk away, as they may have something to hide which will only be evident at full throttle. The car should accelerate (relatively!) slowly until around 3000 rpm when you will feel the turbo kick in and see the boost gauge begin to rise. It should be off the end of the scale by just over 4000 rpm, and power should continue to increase smoothly and without hesitation up to around 6500 rpm.
Look in the rear view mirror under boost and check for any white smoke, which could indicate worn turbo seals (up to £500 for a refurbished turbo) or blue-grey smoke which could indicate worn piston rings (again not a common problem but an expensive one).
Conclusions
Finally, a full service history isn't worth as much as you might think on these cars. if you have an imported Japanese car then chances are you can't read it anyway(!) but in any case, Toyota mechanics and main dealers have in some cases never seen or even heard of one of these rare automobiles and they don't necessarily know what to do with them when they do!
To be honest, the only real issue which all examples suffer is the suspension clunk - you will have to budget for this at some stage between 60-100k miles.
Realistically there are very few things that go wrong on these cars compared to other cars of a similar age e.g. older Subaru Imprezas - the 3S-GTE engine in particular is rock solid. However it's worth knowing what could happen, as like any performance car they aren't cheap to repair if things go badly wrong!
HTH
ST205 Buyer's Guide
This page is intended as a guide to one or two things to look for when buying your ST205 GT-Four. It isn't exhaustive, but should provide you with an idea of the sort of things that can go wrong with the car. Although there are very few 'common' problems, remember that the first examples are nearing 10 years old so can be prone to little niggles.
Initial impressions
The ST205 is not prone to rust more than any other car, but do check anyway in all the usual places. One thing I think it's important to look out for in any performance car is accident damage - inexperienced drivers with fast cars can end up off the road quite easily. Look at the car panels, see if any look a slightly different colour, or don't sound like they are pure metal when you tap them. Also, get underneath the car e.g. at the back and see if the metal support beams are intact - an unscrupulous seller may try to replace a bumper skin but leave bent chassis parts.
Ask when the timing belt has been changed. It should occur every 60k miles.
Open the engine bay and check the general condition. Open the radiator and oil caps, check that the stuff inside doesn't look frothy or scummy (could indicate head gasket problems).
Get in the car and check the state of the wheel and pedals compared to the stated mileage as some jap imports may have been 'altered', a worn wheel will tell you the mileage a doctored odometer may try to hide.
The gearbox in the ST205 is extremely strong, with some serious modifiers running over 600 bhp through it. Things to look out for are a sloppy gearshift characterised by excessive front-back play in the stick. This is often caused by worn bushes in the shifter cables connecting the stick and gearbox. New cables are not far off £200.
Before you start the car, check the engine ECU for any error codes. Follow my procedure here to do this, and make sure there are no codes stored.
The Drive
If this is a private sale then you may not be able to drive yourself, if it is a trade sale you must insist upon it. If a private sale, as well as the checks below, see how the owner treats the car - a turbo car MUST be warmed up to operating temperature before it is thrashed, and must be allowed to cool down for a minute or two after a hard run. if the current owner can not be bothered to do this then steer well clear.
At startup look at the exhaust. Some smoke at initial startup which eventually disappears will indicate worn valve stem seals (though this is unusual). Listen to the engine, a dull rattle which disappears after the car is warmed up can indicate worn main/big end bearings which unless fixed will lead to engine failure. However if there is a high-pitched tinkle which also disappears this could be something simple to fix such as a leaky exhaust manifold requiring tightening.
The engine is very strong, but like all turbo cars there can be problems. The temperature needle should, once the car is warmed up, never rise above just under the horizontal. If it does then start to worry.
Drive off and start listening. The ST205 superstrut suspension is a superior and advanced design, but does suffer from one major problem. After approximately 60-80k miles, there are two main bushes that wear out on each side, though not usually together. They are at the chassis end of the front track-rod, and also on a figure-of-eight piece attaching this rod to the suspension strut. You can tell there is something wrong by the characterictic clunks over potholes/bumps etc - it is a deep, structural sort of clunk rather than something rattling. Often it is more pronounced when turning sharply, and may be evident when first turning the wheel after the car has been parked for a while. This will cost over £500 per side to fix with parts from Toyota, though one of the guys in the GT4 Owner's Club UK does refurbish the parts for less.
Drive the car at full steering lock (both directions) at low speed, and check that there is no low rumbling noise (will be evident in 1 direction only probably) as this can indicate a worn wheel bearing. Only £50 for the part but needs fitting.
Get into cruising speed and listen for clunks from the rear of the car when you put your foot down or take it off the accelerator. This could indicate a worn rear differential mount, another £200 or so.
Because this is a car with serious power and serious traction from the 4WD, the clutch doesn't have a huge lifespan. After 50-60k miles you must always be a little worried whether the clutch is worn. At 40 mph in 3rd, step on the gas and see if the revs suddenly shoot up without apparently applying any tractive force to the wheels. The clutch will be around £200 for a stock item or more for an aftermarket one, plus between £200-400 for fitting.
Now find a straight piece of road, and in 3rd gear at 2000 rpm give it some beans (i.e. put your foot down!). If the seller will not let you give the car a quick thrashing then walk away, as they may have something to hide which will only be evident at full throttle. The car should accelerate (relatively!) slowly until around 3000 rpm when you will feel the turbo kick in and see the boost gauge begin to rise. It should be off the end of the scale by just over 4000 rpm, and power should continue to increase smoothly and without hesitation up to around 6500 rpm.
Look in the rear view mirror under boost and check for any white smoke, which could indicate worn turbo seals (up to £500 for a refurbished turbo) or blue-grey smoke which could indicate worn piston rings (again not a common problem but an expensive one).
Conclusions
Finally, a full service history isn't worth as much as you might think on these cars. if you have an imported Japanese car then chances are you can't read it anyway(!) but in any case, Toyota mechanics and main dealers have in some cases never seen or even heard of one of these rare automobiles and they don't necessarily know what to do with them when they do!
To be honest, the only real issue which all examples suffer is the suspension clunk - you will have to budget for this at some stage between 60-100k miles.
Realistically there are very few things that go wrong on these cars compared to other cars of a similar age e.g. older Subaru Imprezas - the 3S-GTE engine in particular is rock solid. However it's worth knowing what could happen, as like any performance car they aren't cheap to repair if things go badly wrong!
HTH
Sorry couldn't be arsed to read the buying guide, as we have one, but to answer a couple of your Q's, the 'high rise' spoiler which IMHO is awful, is simply 2 blocks that raise the standard spoiler so you won't have any problems with holes left exposed etc. Can pick them up primered and ready to fit from several sources. Or 2nd hand and can be resprayed.
Also, those 3 spokes are often given away as no-one wants them - we still have the standard 5 spoke if you wanted those instead. As K says, go to GT4OC for tonnes of answers, or also www.celica-club.co.uk for info and lots of spares.
Also, those 3 spokes are often given away as no-one wants them - we still have the standard 5 spoke if you wanted those instead. As K says, go to GT4OC for tonnes of answers, or also www.celica-club.co.uk for info and lots of spares.
I think the UK cars are mapped for 95ron petrol and the Jap imports are mapped for 101ron petrol which acounts for the stated differences. I assume the UK cars can take advantage of super unleaded and will run the same power.
My imported ST205 was rolling roaded at just over 250bhp and 260 ft/lb on standard boost a couple of month ago. In fact a couple of cars on the with just exhaust, intake and boost controller were just short of 300bhp on the day.
My imported ST205 was rolling roaded at just over 250bhp and 260 ft/lb on standard boost a couple of month ago. In fact a couple of cars on the with just exhaust, intake and boost controller were just short of 300bhp on the day.
Edited by silent k on Tuesday 4th September 22:31
silent k said:
My imported ST205 was rolling roaded at just over 250bhp and 260 ft/lb on standard boost a couple of month ago. In fact a couple of cars on the with just exhaust, intake and boost controller were just short of 300bhp on the day.
Indeed. I've seen stock cars post numbers over supposed stock. There is a theory that the power was under quoted to protect Supra sales. This may, of course, be bullshit.Edited by silent k on Tuesday 4th September 22:31
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