Gentlemen of war
Discussion
Copied from an email, the heartwarming story of gentlemen in the mess of war....
Look carefully at the B-17 and note how shot up it is - one engine dead, tail, horizontal stabilizer and nose shot up.. It was ready to fall out of the sky. (This is a painting done by an artist from the description of both pilots many years later.) Then realize that there is a German ME-109 fighter flying next to it. Now read the story below. I think you'll be surprised.....
Charlie Brown was a B-17 Flying Fortress pilot with the 379th Bomber Group at Kimbolton , England . His B-17 was called 'Ye Old Pub' and was in a terrible state, having been hit by flak and fighters. The compass was damaged and they were flying deeper over enemy territory instead of heading home to Kimbolton.
After flying the B-17 over an enemy airfield, a German pilot named Franz Steigler was ordered to take off and shoot down the B-17. When he got near the B-17, he could not believe his eyes. In his words, he 'had never seen a plane in such a bad state'. The tail and rear section was severely damaged, and the tail gunner wounded. The top gunner was all over the top of the fuselage. The nose was smashed and there were holes everywhere.
Despite having ammunition, Franz flew to the side of the B-17 and looked at Charlie Brown, the pilot. Brown was scared and struggling to control his damaged and blood-stained plane.
BF-109 pilot Franz Stigler
B-17 pilot Charlie Brown
Aware that they had no idea where they were going, Franz waved at Charlie to turn 180 degrees. Franz escorted and guided the stricken plane to, and slightly over, the North Sea towards England . He then saluted Charlie Brown and turned away, back to Europe . When Franz landed he told the CO that the plane had been shot down over the sea, and never told the truth to anybody. Charlie Brown and the remains of his crew told all at their briefing, but were ordered never to talk about it.
More than 40 years later, Charlie Brown wanted to find the Luftwaffe pilot who saved the crew. After years of research, Franz was found. He had never talked about the incident, not even at post-war reunions.
They met in the USA at a 379th Bomber Group reunion, together with 5 people who are alive now - all because Franz never fired his guns that day.
(L-R) German Ace Franz Stigler, artist Ernie Boyett, and B-17 pilot Charlie Brown
When asked why he didn’t shoot them down, Stigler later said, “I didn’t have the heart to finish those brave men. I flew beside them for a long time. They were trying desperately to get home and I was going to let them do that. I could not have shot at them. It would have been the same as shooting at a man in a parachute.”
Both men died in 2008.
Look carefully at the B-17 and note how shot up it is - one engine dead, tail, horizontal stabilizer and nose shot up.. It was ready to fall out of the sky. (This is a painting done by an artist from the description of both pilots many years later.) Then realize that there is a German ME-109 fighter flying next to it. Now read the story below. I think you'll be surprised.....
Charlie Brown was a B-17 Flying Fortress pilot with the 379th Bomber Group at Kimbolton , England . His B-17 was called 'Ye Old Pub' and was in a terrible state, having been hit by flak and fighters. The compass was damaged and they were flying deeper over enemy territory instead of heading home to Kimbolton.
After flying the B-17 over an enemy airfield, a German pilot named Franz Steigler was ordered to take off and shoot down the B-17. When he got near the B-17, he could not believe his eyes. In his words, he 'had never seen a plane in such a bad state'. The tail and rear section was severely damaged, and the tail gunner wounded. The top gunner was all over the top of the fuselage. The nose was smashed and there were holes everywhere.
Despite having ammunition, Franz flew to the side of the B-17 and looked at Charlie Brown, the pilot. Brown was scared and struggling to control his damaged and blood-stained plane.
BF-109 pilot Franz Stigler
B-17 pilot Charlie Brown
Aware that they had no idea where they were going, Franz waved at Charlie to turn 180 degrees. Franz escorted and guided the stricken plane to, and slightly over, the North Sea towards England . He then saluted Charlie Brown and turned away, back to Europe . When Franz landed he told the CO that the plane had been shot down over the sea, and never told the truth to anybody. Charlie Brown and the remains of his crew told all at their briefing, but were ordered never to talk about it.
More than 40 years later, Charlie Brown wanted to find the Luftwaffe pilot who saved the crew. After years of research, Franz was found. He had never talked about the incident, not even at post-war reunions.
They met in the USA at a 379th Bomber Group reunion, together with 5 people who are alive now - all because Franz never fired his guns that day.
(L-R) German Ace Franz Stigler, artist Ernie Boyett, and B-17 pilot Charlie Brown
When asked why he didn’t shoot them down, Stigler later said, “I didn’t have the heart to finish those brave men. I flew beside them for a long time. They were trying desperately to get home and I was going to let them do that. I could not have shot at them. It would have been the same as shooting at a man in a parachute.”
Both men died in 2008.
Edited by FUBAR on Friday 8th May 14:40
Bit more information - "Stigler was credited with 28 aerial victories; including eleven four engine bombers, and over thirty probable. He was shot down seventeen times, including eleven times by American bombers. Franz bailed out six times and rode his aircraft down the other eleven."
http://aviationartstore.com/franz_stigler_109f_2.h...
http://aviationartstore.com/franz_stigler_109f_2.h...
So how many of the German airman's colleagues and countrymen were doomed to die as a result of that man's choice to ignore orders?
If a footnote to that story told us how many people the crew of the stricken US bomber were to go on to kill during the rest of the war it might cast a different shadow, no?
If this story was the other way around (German:Allied / Allied:German) would we still be celebrating it? Would we judge a lone British or US airman who had sheparded a German bomber back to German airspace a hero? After the Blitz?
Seems a pretty simple dereliction of duty to me. If you're flying for your country then your duty is to obey orders, not safely return enemy combatants to their home airfield to fight another day because they seemed to be having a bad day.
He might well have been a lovely chap, but on this evidence he deliberately betrayed his country on that day, and the word I'd use for that is not 'gentleman'.
During the war bomber crews on all sides numbering in their thousands killed civilians numbering in their tens or hundreds of thousands. 5 Allied bomber crew would directly create many multiples of that in lost military and civilian lives.
In generously opting not to cost his enemy 5 airmen and 1 aircraft that day, I think he may have cost his own country a price many times higher.
He kept deathly quiet about what he had done as he knew he would be court martialled (at best) had the truth of his actions become public at the time.
If Germany had won the war (and the Allies not been appointed moral judge and official historian to the conflict) then I'm absolutely positive he would never have told anyone.
If a footnote to that story told us how many people the crew of the stricken US bomber were to go on to kill during the rest of the war it might cast a different shadow, no?
If this story was the other way around (German:Allied / Allied:German) would we still be celebrating it? Would we judge a lone British or US airman who had sheparded a German bomber back to German airspace a hero? After the Blitz?
Seems a pretty simple dereliction of duty to me. If you're flying for your country then your duty is to obey orders, not safely return enemy combatants to their home airfield to fight another day because they seemed to be having a bad day.
He might well have been a lovely chap, but on this evidence he deliberately betrayed his country on that day, and the word I'd use for that is not 'gentleman'.
During the war bomber crews on all sides numbering in their thousands killed civilians numbering in their tens or hundreds of thousands. 5 Allied bomber crew would directly create many multiples of that in lost military and civilian lives.
In generously opting not to cost his enemy 5 airmen and 1 aircraft that day, I think he may have cost his own country a price many times higher.
He kept deathly quiet about what he had done as he knew he would be court martialled (at best) had the truth of his actions become public at the time.
If Germany had won the war (and the Allies not been appointed moral judge and official historian to the conflict) then I'm absolutely positive he would never have told anyone.
Edited by BarnatosGhost on Sunday 10th May 22:15
BarnatosGhost said:
So how many of the German airman's colleagues and countrymen were doomed to die as a result of that man's choice to ignore orders?
If a footnote to that story told us how many people the crew of the stricken US bomber were to go on to kill during the rest of the war it might cast a different shadow, no?
If this story was the other way around (German:Allied / Allied:German) would we still be celebrating it? Would we judge a lone British or US airman who had sheparded a German bomber back to German airspace a hero? After the Blitz?
Seems a pretty simple dereliction of duty to me. If you're flying for your country then your duty is to obey orders, not safely return enemy combatants to their home airfield to fight another day because they seemed to be having a bad day.
He might well have been a lovely chap, but on this evidence he deliberately betrayed his country on that day, and the word I'd use for that is not 'gentleman'.
During the war bomber crews on all sides numbering in their thousands killed civilians numbering in their tens or hundreds of thousands. 5 Allied bomber crew would directly create many multiples of that in lost military and civilian lives.
In generously opting not to cost his enemy 5 airmen and 1 aircraft that day, I think he may have cost his own country a price many times higher.
He kept deathly quiet about what he had done as he knew he would be court martialled (at best) had the truth of his actions become public at the time.
If Germany had won the war (and the Allies not been appointed moral judge and official historian to the conflict) then I'm absolutely positive he would never have told anyone.
Check this outIf a footnote to that story told us how many people the crew of the stricken US bomber were to go on to kill during the rest of the war it might cast a different shadow, no?
If this story was the other way around (German:Allied / Allied:German) would we still be celebrating it? Would we judge a lone British or US airman who had sheparded a German bomber back to German airspace a hero? After the Blitz?
Seems a pretty simple dereliction of duty to me. If you're flying for your country then your duty is to obey orders, not safely return enemy combatants to their home airfield to fight another day because they seemed to be having a bad day.
He might well have been a lovely chap, but on this evidence he deliberately betrayed his country on that day, and the word I'd use for that is not 'gentleman'.
During the war bomber crews on all sides numbering in their thousands killed civilians numbering in their tens or hundreds of thousands. 5 Allied bomber crew would directly create many multiples of that in lost military and civilian lives.
In generously opting not to cost his enemy 5 airmen and 1 aircraft that day, I think he may have cost his own country a price many times higher.
He kept deathly quiet about what he had done as he knew he would be court martialled (at best) had the truth of his actions become public at the time.
If Germany had won the war (and the Allies not been appointed moral judge and official historian to the conflict) then I'm absolutely positive he would never have told anyone.
Good points all.
Another book I have read by a B17 airman talks about why the 100th group were considered "unlucky", and whose casualty rate was so much higher then the rest.
The story goes that early on in the war, a B17 from the 100th was badly shot up, It lowered its undercarriage, to show itsbeaten and "given up, have mercy". when a Bf109 went in clsoe to look, they opened up and shot it down. The other Bf109 pilots who witnessed this decided that the 100gp would always be a target.
war is always a nasty business,
Another book I have read by a B17 airman talks about why the 100th group were considered "unlucky", and whose casualty rate was so much higher then the rest.
The story goes that early on in the war, a B17 from the 100th was badly shot up, It lowered its undercarriage, to show itsbeaten and "given up, have mercy". when a Bf109 went in clsoe to look, they opened up and shot it down. The other Bf109 pilots who witnessed this decided that the 100gp would always be a target.
war is always a nasty business,
BarnatosGhost said:
If a footnote to that story told us how many people the crew of the stricken US bomber were to go on to kill during the rest of the war it might cast a different shadow, no?
During the war bomber crews on all sides numbering in their thousands killed civilians numbering in their tens or hundreds of thousands. 5 Allied bomber crew would directly create many multiples of that in lost military and civilian lives.
It was TOTAL war. It's something that people of our generation can never understand or appreciate. War isn't nice, pleasant or surgical, particularly in those times. It's somewhat heart warming, that even in those terrible times, a person was able to display a touch of humanity.During the war bomber crews on all sides numbering in their thousands killed civilians numbering in their tens or hundreds of thousands. 5 Allied bomber crew would directly create many multiples of that in lost military and civilian lives.
Edited by BarnatosGhost on Sunday 10th May 22:15
We owe those bomber crews a huge thanks. You might not be in a position to write freely if they hadn't been prepared to risk their lives.
Battenburg Bob said:
BarnatosGhost said:
If a footnote to that story told us how many people the crew of the stricken US bomber were to go on to kill during the rest of the war it might cast a different shadow, no?
During the war bomber crews on all sides numbering in their thousands killed civilians numbering in their tens or hundreds of thousands. 5 Allied bomber crew would directly create many multiples of that in lost military and civilian lives.
It was TOTAL war. It's something that people of our generation can never understand or appreciate. War isn't nice, pleasant or surgical, particularly in those times. It's somewhat heart warming, that even in those terrible times, a person was able to display a touch of humanity.During the war bomber crews on all sides numbering in their thousands killed civilians numbering in their tens or hundreds of thousands. 5 Allied bomber crew would directly create many multiples of that in lost military and civilian lives.
Edited by BarnatosGhost on Sunday 10th May 22:15
We owe those bomber crews a huge thanks. You might not be in a position to write freely if they hadn't been prepared to risk their lives.
Pigeon said:
never heard that tale beforehttp://www.firstworldwar.com/features/tandey.htm
interestingly (or not) wikipedia, (first google result) doesn't mention it
Battenburg Bob said:
BarnatosGhost said:
If a footnote to that story told us how many people the crew of the stricken US bomber were to go on to kill during the rest of the war it might cast a different shadow, no?
During the war bomber crews on all sides numbering in their thousands killed civilians numbering in their tens or hundreds of thousands. 5 Allied bomber crew would directly create many multiples of that in lost military and civilian lives.
It was TOTAL war. It's something that people of our generation can never understand or appreciate. War isn't nice, pleasant or surgical, particularly in those times. It's somewhat heart warming, that even in those terrible times, a person was able to display a touch of humanity.During the war bomber crews on all sides numbering in their thousands killed civilians numbering in their tens or hundreds of thousands. 5 Allied bomber crew would directly create many multiples of that in lost military and civilian lives.
Edited by BarnatosGhost on Sunday 10th May 22:15
We owe those bomber crews a huge thanks. You might not be in a position to write freely if they hadn't been prepared to risk their lives.
When that chap did a 'good deed' for the 5 people in his cross-hairs, he committed a grievous betrayal of the millions back home. Not an honourable action, in my humble opinion. If he wasn't in the correct frame of mind to bring down a damaged enemy aircraft (which must be a terrible thing to have to do) then he shouldn't have been in the air.
Edited by BarnatosGhost on Thursday 4th June 10:33
BarnatosGhost said:
Battenburg Bob said:
BarnatosGhost said:
If a footnote to that story told us how many people the crew of the stricken US bomber were to go on to kill during the rest of the war it might cast a different shadow, no?
During the war bomber crews on all sides numbering in their thousands killed civilians numbering in their tens or hundreds of thousands. 5 Allied bomber crew would directly create many multiples of that in lost military and civilian lives.
It was TOTAL war. It's something that people of our generation can never understand or appreciate. War isn't nice, pleasant or surgical, particularly in those times. It's somewhat heart warming, that even in those terrible times, a person was able to display a touch of humanity.During the war bomber crews on all sides numbering in their thousands killed civilians numbering in their tens or hundreds of thousands. 5 Allied bomber crew would directly create many multiples of that in lost military and civilian lives.
Edited by BarnatosGhost on Sunday 10th May 22:15
We owe those bomber crews a huge thanks. You might not be in a position to write freely if they hadn't been prepared to risk their lives.
When that chap did a 'good deed' for the 5 people in his cross-hairs, he committed a grievous betrayal of the millions back home. Not an honourable action, in my humble opinion. If he wasn't in the correct frame of mind to bring down a damaged enemy aircraft (which must be a terrible thing to have to do) then he shouldn't have been in the air.
Edited by BarnatosGhost on Thursday 4th June 10:33
Streetrod said:
Did this chap do his best for his country?
Yes, I'd argue he did. Doing his best for humanity, giving his nation something to be proud of even in their later defeat, ultimately, doing the right thing as a human, despite war. The Germans (probably because of the war) have a term Civil Courage which perfectly describes this sort of action. Even in war, killing someone because of what they might do in the future rather than what they are threatening to do right now, is wrong. Thats IMHO, not sure what the Geneva convention says...Cheers,
FT.
Streetrod said:
BarnatosGhost said:
Battenburg Bob said:
BarnatosGhost said:
If a footnote to that story told us how many people the crew of the stricken US bomber were to go on to kill during the rest of the war it might cast a different shadow, no?
During the war bomber crews on all sides numbering in their thousands killed civilians numbering in their tens or hundreds of thousands. 5 Allied bomber crew would directly create many multiples of that in lost military and civilian lives.
It was TOTAL war. It's something that people of our generation can never understand or appreciate. War isn't nice, pleasant or surgical, particularly in those times. It's somewhat heart warming, that even in those terrible times, a person was able to display a touch of humanity.During the war bomber crews on all sides numbering in their thousands killed civilians numbering in their tens or hundreds of thousands. 5 Allied bomber crew would directly create many multiples of that in lost military and civilian lives.
Edited by BarnatosGhost on Sunday 10th May 22:15
We owe those bomber crews a huge thanks. You might not be in a position to write freely if they hadn't been prepared to risk their lives.
When that chap did a 'good deed' for the 5 people in his cross-hairs, he committed a grievous betrayal of the millions back home. Not an honourable action, in my humble opinion. If he wasn't in the correct frame of mind to bring down a damaged enemy aircraft (which must be a terrible thing to have to do) then he shouldn't have been in the air.
Edited by BarnatosGhost on Thursday 4th June 10:33
Its all horrible whichever way around you approach it, but having individuals temporarily swapping teams without telling anyone certainly doesn't make it any better.
Fume troll said:
Streetrod said:
Did this chap do his best for his country?
Yes, I'd argue he did. Doing his best for humanity, giving his nation something to be proud of even in their later defeat, ultimately, doing the right thing as a human, despite war. The Germans (probably because of the war) have a term Civil Courage which perfectly describes this sort of action. Even in war, killing someone because of what they might do in the future rather than what they are threatening to do right now, is wrong. Thats IMHO, not sure what the Geneva convention says...Cheers,
FT.
In (this and any other) war, killing someone (armed combatant) because of what they might do in the future - i.e. invade and conquer the UK - is EXACTLY the correct course of action.
If capture and containment (Geneva convention) is possible then that is obviously the preferable course, but if the choice is between releasing someone today so that they can kill you and your countrymen tomorrow, or simply shooting them down, then that is no choice at all.
Duty ABSOLUTELY REQUIRES you to shoot them down.
BarnatosGhost said:
Fume troll said:
Streetrod said:
Did this chap do his best for his country?
Yes, I'd argue he did. Doing his best for humanity, giving his nation something to be proud of even in their later defeat, ultimately, doing the right thing as a human, despite war. The Germans (probably because of the war) have a term Civil Courage which perfectly describes this sort of action. Even in war, killing someone because of what they might do in the future rather than what they are threatening to do right now, is wrong. Thats IMHO, not sure what the Geneva convention says...Cheers,
FT.
BarnatosGhost said:
Chamberlain's piece of paper was perfect testament to the pointlessness of appeasement in this instance. Hitler took him for a mug.
No relevance, we're not talking appeasement, we're talking about killing people with who have no will and/or means to fight.
BarnatosGhost said:
In (this and any other) war, killing someone (armed combatant) because of what they might do in the future - i.e. invade and conquer the UK - is EXACTLY the correct course of action.
No, that is what they are threatening, and have the potential, to do now, not what they may threaten to do in the future. Different thing.BarnatosGhost said:
If capture and containment (Geneva convention) is possible then that is obviously the preferable course, but if the choice is between releasing someone today so that they can kill you and your countrymen tomorrow, or simply shooting them down, then that is no choice at all.
Duty ABSOLUTELY REQUIRES you to shoot them down.
That's one definition of duty. Civil courage "standing up against something that is deemed unjust and evil" which is now law in (for example) Germany would require the opposite.Duty ABSOLUTELY REQUIRES you to shoot them down.
Cheers,
FT.
EF.Formatting.
Edited by Fume troll on Thursday 4th June 12:43
BarnatosGhost said:
Its all horrible whichever way around you approach it, but having individuals temporarily swapping teams without telling anyone certainly doesn't make it any better.
To me it's not like swapping teams, it's more like kicking the ball into touch to pause the game when an opposing player is injured and needs treatment.Cheers,
FT.
except it's not a game is it
the bomber crew don't get back to have another crack at goal, they come back with more bombs and incendiaries to drop on families like your own in towns like your own, the people you are supposedly defending
no soldier would stop and say "it's OK, I can see you're having trouble reloading, I'll wait"
(note: this applies in both directions obviously, lets not have some idiot check my profile, see 'germany' and call me a nazi)
the bomber crew don't get back to have another crack at goal, they come back with more bombs and incendiaries to drop on families like your own in towns like your own, the people you are supposedly defending
no soldier would stop and say "it's OK, I can see you're having trouble reloading, I'll wait"
(note: this applies in both directions obviously, lets not have some idiot check my profile, see 'germany' and call me a nazi)
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