Recommend me an ADSL router, or leased line
Discussion
Network experts, please recommend me a good ADSL router. I've got a Demon Business Pro 2+ line at the moment, which is the best I can get currently before going to leased line. Or should I go leased line?
I was given a quote of £475 a month for a 4 meg leased line and I was about to say 'have it!' but the lady said that her quoting system was screwed and suddenly it was £1150 a month.
So unless there's a respected ISP who can provide me business-grade SLA and 4 meg minimum leased line for around £500 a month, I'm stuck with ADSL. My current service is an ADSL2+ thingy and 20Mb down, 1Mb upstream. I'd love to have some more upstream, but I'm not paying for SDSL since that's maximum 2Mb upstream, meaning I double my upstream but cut my downstream by 10 times (my current business ADSL is low-contention, I'm close to the exchange, and there aren't many other businesses between me and the exchange using lots of data so I expect I'm high on my circuit's QoS table).
I'm not *unhappy* with the current service - I've been a customer of Demon's since 2004! There have been a few outages recently though and the ADSL SLA is now 50 hours. I was offline all yesterday and I lost £700. This isn't much money to a lot of businesses but it's significant to me, and there doesn't seem to be anything 'in between' the £40 a month I pay for 20 Mb down, 1 Mb up and 50 hour SLA, and then the £1000 a month for 4 Mb down, 4 Mb up and 3 hour SLA.
I want to make the most of my ADSL (unless any ISP owners here, Jamie, can offer anything competitive in between or a leased line, but I think I may be being unreasonable expecting to pay only £500 a month… it's not a market I'm familiar with) and my current router is a consumer unit - a Netgear DG834. I'm using custom firmware on the unit, and it's a Linux embedded system so it's hackable. But it strains under heavy load.
So, two requests from the network and ISP experts here please!!!!
One - can anyone familiarise me with the leased line market. I'd be happy with 4 Mb down, if I got 4 Mb up. I've currently got 20 Mb down but that's 'up to' and a leased line will be more even if the number is less, I'm aware of that. However I can't justify a grand a month on network connectivity, but I feel that I should be paying more than £40 a month. I lost real money yesterday and there have been a few this year (Demon haven't had ANY outages that cost me money in the previous three years, on the other hand) - Demon, bought by Thus, are now part of Cable and Wireless. The consolidation means I don't know really whose equipment I'm hosted on, how important a customer I am (used to have a direct number to a UK technical support chap, now it's an Indian call centre) - etc. With a top budget of £500 is there any realistic option other than what I've already got?
Two - if I'm best sticking to ADSL, I'd like a decent router. It has to be either Linux-embedded so I can hack in and have a feel already for how the system works (I am familiar with a Linux box using pppd to connect etc.), or if not, an industry standard that would be worth my while actually learning (Cisco?). Ideally it'd just be another Linux system but with more reliable, better quality DSL hardware. What do you guys use?
Many thanks in advance...
I was given a quote of £475 a month for a 4 meg leased line and I was about to say 'have it!' but the lady said that her quoting system was screwed and suddenly it was £1150 a month.
So unless there's a respected ISP who can provide me business-grade SLA and 4 meg minimum leased line for around £500 a month, I'm stuck with ADSL. My current service is an ADSL2+ thingy and 20Mb down, 1Mb upstream. I'd love to have some more upstream, but I'm not paying for SDSL since that's maximum 2Mb upstream, meaning I double my upstream but cut my downstream by 10 times (my current business ADSL is low-contention, I'm close to the exchange, and there aren't many other businesses between me and the exchange using lots of data so I expect I'm high on my circuit's QoS table).
I'm not *unhappy* with the current service - I've been a customer of Demon's since 2004! There have been a few outages recently though and the ADSL SLA is now 50 hours. I was offline all yesterday and I lost £700. This isn't much money to a lot of businesses but it's significant to me, and there doesn't seem to be anything 'in between' the £40 a month I pay for 20 Mb down, 1 Mb up and 50 hour SLA, and then the £1000 a month for 4 Mb down, 4 Mb up and 3 hour SLA.
I want to make the most of my ADSL (unless any ISP owners here, Jamie, can offer anything competitive in between or a leased line, but I think I may be being unreasonable expecting to pay only £500 a month… it's not a market I'm familiar with) and my current router is a consumer unit - a Netgear DG834. I'm using custom firmware on the unit, and it's a Linux embedded system so it's hackable. But it strains under heavy load.
So, two requests from the network and ISP experts here please!!!!
One - can anyone familiarise me with the leased line market. I'd be happy with 4 Mb down, if I got 4 Mb up. I've currently got 20 Mb down but that's 'up to' and a leased line will be more even if the number is less, I'm aware of that. However I can't justify a grand a month on network connectivity, but I feel that I should be paying more than £40 a month. I lost real money yesterday and there have been a few this year (Demon haven't had ANY outages that cost me money in the previous three years, on the other hand) - Demon, bought by Thus, are now part of Cable and Wireless. The consolidation means I don't know really whose equipment I'm hosted on, how important a customer I am (used to have a direct number to a UK technical support chap, now it's an Indian call centre) - etc. With a top budget of £500 is there any realistic option other than what I've already got?
Two - if I'm best sticking to ADSL, I'd like a decent router. It has to be either Linux-embedded so I can hack in and have a feel already for how the system works (I am familiar with a Linux box using pppd to connect etc.), or if not, an industry standard that would be worth my while actually learning (Cisco?). Ideally it'd just be another Linux system but with more reliable, better quality DSL hardware. What do you guys use?
Many thanks in advance...
Leased line costs vary wildly, we pay just over a grand a month for 100mbps, but with a true leased line you're usually looking at around £3k install costs from BT regardless of how little an install may appear to involve plus around £600/month minimum even if you just want a few mbps of connectivity.
Quite a few ISPs offer bonding (Be/AAISP leap to mind) and Easynet Connect do various business grade things via copper.
Cast iron SLA's cost, and they won't reimburse you for any actual business/money you may lose, just for the connection time lost, so unless you're prepared to pay serious coin for serious SLA's I suspect you'd do pretty well with two phone lines, and one BT based ADSL service and one LLU based service with either bonding or just use one as a backup.
Have you stuck your postcode into SamKnows and if so what's available?
Quite a few ISPs offer bonding (Be/AAISP leap to mind) and Easynet Connect do various business grade things via copper.
Cast iron SLA's cost, and they won't reimburse you for any actual business/money you may lose, just for the connection time lost, so unless you're prepared to pay serious coin for serious SLA's I suspect you'd do pretty well with two phone lines, and one BT based ADSL service and one LLU based service with either bonding or just use one as a backup.
Have you stuck your postcode into SamKnows and if so what's available?
cyberface said:
Network experts, please recommend me a good ADSL router.
Can't imagine why you couldn't have two Cisco 2600 running two connections. (Or something similar as 2600 are probably old school by now). One connection through Demon, and the other through Virgin. One goes down, the other takes over.nothing wrong with the router to be honest, it will cope with 24MBps of throughput, which is more than an ADSL2 line is going to give in the real world
just use it as a modem, connect it to a real business router or UTM box, and run your internal network off that
as ADSL modem chip is pretty much the same, whether its in a £1000 modem, or a £25 modem, its the rest of the bits behind/integrated with it, that make the difference ...
just use it as a modem, connect it to a real business router or UTM box, and run your internal network off that
as ADSL modem chip is pretty much the same, whether its in a £1000 modem, or a £25 modem, its the rest of the bits behind/integrated with it, that make the difference ...
Draytek or Cisco for the router. Leased lines cost do vary greatly as has been said. The problem with many failover lines is they tend to use the same infrastructure. A few companies now run with a 3G back up. Okay it isn't great by a long shot but it will keep you running. Many routers now come with this option.
A few thoughts...
Do you have any Annex M services available from your exchange? Gives me around a 2Mb upload speed using the Be network.
I've heard lots of good things about http://www.aaisp.net.uk.
My parents have been with Demon since 2001ish, the last 18 months have been awful, at one point they'd have no connectivity every Sunday for about 6 weeks.
Are you due to get fibre to cabinet anytime soon? 40Mb down/10Mb up for ADSL2 prices seems like a bargain.
Personally I'm still very happy with my old Linksys WRT54GL, it's very stable.
Do you have any Annex M services available from your exchange? Gives me around a 2Mb upload speed using the Be network.
I've heard lots of good things about http://www.aaisp.net.uk.
My parents have been with Demon since 2001ish, the last 18 months have been awful, at one point they'd have no connectivity every Sunday for about 6 weeks.
Are you due to get fibre to cabinet anytime soon? 40Mb down/10Mb up for ADSL2 prices seems like a bargain.
Personally I'm still very happy with my old Linksys WRT54GL, it's very stable.
Edited by Accelebrate on Saturday 27th November 16:24
OK perhaps it's an artefact of Demon / Thus being taken over by C&W, service has gone downhill since then.
Switching ISPs is an option if there are higher grade ADSL services available in my area. What I really need is a recommendation. I've got the budget (as per the OP) to pay for a lot more than I currently have - I've also got two BT lines by the looks of things (I've at least got two BT numbers, only one of which serves ADSL) - would it be feasible to get this Annex M thingy going full speed on my current line, then provisioning the second BT line the same way and then 'channel bonding' to give one IP range and twice the bandwidth?
I remember the nonsense I'd get trying to do that with ISDN - two 64k lines, bond them both but it's pot luck as to whether both lines hit the same router at the other end - if so, you get 128k, if not, then replies to packets sent by one line end up routed down the other at random - 50% at least packet loss.
Don't fancy all that nonsense again.
Sounds like I can't get leased line for £500 a month so what's the best service level I can realistically assume for a business-grade ADSL connection? Who are the best ISPs for small business (do Register1 compete in this space?) - don't want to go *too* small since it's too easy to get burned when the business goes bust or gets taken over and service levels tank (Demon used to be absolutely excellent)…
If the Netgear is OK then I'll stick with it. Seems to be a pretty neat piece of kit with the DGTeam firmware - only seen problems with opening *huge* numbers of half-open NAT connections (which shouldn't be done really)...
Switching ISPs is an option if there are higher grade ADSL services available in my area. What I really need is a recommendation. I've got the budget (as per the OP) to pay for a lot more than I currently have - I've also got two BT lines by the looks of things (I've at least got two BT numbers, only one of which serves ADSL) - would it be feasible to get this Annex M thingy going full speed on my current line, then provisioning the second BT line the same way and then 'channel bonding' to give one IP range and twice the bandwidth?
I remember the nonsense I'd get trying to do that with ISDN - two 64k lines, bond them both but it's pot luck as to whether both lines hit the same router at the other end - if so, you get 128k, if not, then replies to packets sent by one line end up routed down the other at random - 50% at least packet loss.
Don't fancy all that nonsense again.
Sounds like I can't get leased line for £500 a month so what's the best service level I can realistically assume for a business-grade ADSL connection? Who are the best ISPs for small business (do Register1 compete in this space?) - don't want to go *too* small since it's too easy to get burned when the business goes bust or gets taken over and service levels tank (Demon used to be absolutely excellent)…
If the Netgear is OK then I'll stick with it. Seems to be a pretty neat piece of kit with the DGTeam firmware - only seen problems with opening *huge* numbers of half-open NAT connections (which shouldn't be done really)...
cyberface said:
Sounds like I can't get leased line for £500 a month so what's the best service level I can realistically assume for a business-grade ADSL connection?
I've missed the bit where you have stated what you want to achieve. You stated that you lost £700 yesterday due to downtime and that a leased line would give a better SLA, etc. But what exactly do you want to achieve?If it's to ensure you are always connected, then the ADSL router with fallback 3G as someone else suggested is probably the best route.
You also keep banging on about SLAs. SLAs in the ISP business are worthless and no ISP in their right mind will ever pay out a consequential loss. An SLA is only as good as the service you got yesterday. An ISP giving an SLA is like a politician making a promise.
Again, as someone else pointed out, the bottom layer to a lot of this stuff is BT. So it's nearly impossible to give a SLA that is better than BTs, I can bet BT don't give fantastic SLAs in the first place to their tier 1 customers. Even when BT do fail - what does the ISP get out of it in compensation? Nothing that they will ever pass onto the customer. There are too many "what if's" in the whole situation.
I've no experience with line bonding, but I've heard positive reports from others. I believe there is dedicated bonded ADSL hardware available which 'just works'.
Not all modems support Annex M, I replaced the unreliable and bulky Thomson router that my ISP provided with a 'Zoom X4' which cost pennies but has been impressively stable. Coupled to a WRT54GL with the 'Tomato' firmware I'm pretty happy with that setup, it's rock solid and gives me something to tinker with if I feel so inclined.
If you've already got a second line installed surely it'd make sense to subscribe to an ADSL service from another ISP, maybe on a month rolling contract or similar, it wouldn't be any use if someone crashes into the big green box at the end of your road or burns down your exchange, but it would allow you to function when Demon throws a wobbly.
Not all modems support Annex M, I replaced the unreliable and bulky Thomson router that my ISP provided with a 'Zoom X4' which cost pennies but has been impressively stable. Coupled to a WRT54GL with the 'Tomato' firmware I'm pretty happy with that setup, it's rock solid and gives me something to tinker with if I feel so inclined.
If you've already got a second line installed surely it'd make sense to subscribe to an ADSL service from another ISP, maybe on a month rolling contract or similar, it wouldn't be any use if someone crashes into the big green box at the end of your road or burns down your exchange, but it would allow you to function when Demon throws a wobbly.
tinman0 said:
cyberface said:
Network experts, please recommend me a good ADSL router.
Can't imagine why you couldn't have two Cisco 2600 running two connections. (Or something similar as 2600 are probably old school by now). One connection through Demon, and the other through Virgin. One goes down, the other takes over.cyberface said:
OK perhaps it's an artefact of Demon / Thus being taken over by C&W, service has gone downhill since then.
Switching ISPs is an option if there are higher grade ADSL services available in my area. What I really need is a recommendation. I've got the budget (as per the OP) to pay for a lot more than I currently have - I've also got two BT lines by the looks of things (I've at least got two BT numbers, only one of which serves ADSL) - would it be feasible to get this Annex M thingy going full speed on my current line, then provisioning the second BT line the same way and then 'channel bonding' to give one IP range and twice the bandwidth?
I remember the nonsense I'd get trying to do that with ISDN - two 64k lines, bond them both but it's pot luck as to whether both lines hit the same router at the other end - if so, you get 128k, if not, then replies to packets sent by one line end up routed down the other at random - 50% at least packet loss.
Where are you based, I may be able to assist on this, PM me
Don't fancy all that nonsense again.
Sounds like I can't get leased line for £500 a month so what's the best service level I can realistically assume for a business-grade ADSL connection? Who are the best ISPs for small business (do Register1 compete in this space?) - don't want to go *too* small since it's too easy to get burned when the business goes bust or gets taken over and service levels tank (Demon used to be absolutely excellent)…
If the Netgear is OK then I'll stick with it. Seems to be a pretty neat piece of kit with the DGTeam firmware - only seen problems with opening *huge* numbers of half-open NAT connections (which shouldn't be done really)...
Switching ISPs is an option if there are higher grade ADSL services available in my area. What I really need is a recommendation. I've got the budget (as per the OP) to pay for a lot more than I currently have - I've also got two BT lines by the looks of things (I've at least got two BT numbers, only one of which serves ADSL) - would it be feasible to get this Annex M thingy going full speed on my current line, then provisioning the second BT line the same way and then 'channel bonding' to give one IP range and twice the bandwidth?
I remember the nonsense I'd get trying to do that with ISDN - two 64k lines, bond them both but it's pot luck as to whether both lines hit the same router at the other end - if so, you get 128k, if not, then replies to packets sent by one line end up routed down the other at random - 50% at least packet loss.
Where are you based, I may be able to assist on this, PM me
Don't fancy all that nonsense again.
Sounds like I can't get leased line for £500 a month so what's the best service level I can realistically assume for a business-grade ADSL connection? Who are the best ISPs for small business (do Register1 compete in this space?) - don't want to go *too* small since it's too easy to get burned when the business goes bust or gets taken over and service levels tank (Demon used to be absolutely excellent)…
If the Netgear is OK then I'll stick with it. Seems to be a pretty neat piece of kit with the DGTeam firmware - only seen problems with opening *huge* numbers of half-open NAT connections (which shouldn't be done really)...
lestag said:
tinman0 said:
cyberface said:
Network experts, please recommend me a good ADSL router.
Can't imagine why you couldn't have two Cisco 2600 running two connections. (Or something similar as 2600 are probably old school by now). One connection through Demon, and the other through Virgin. One goes down, the other takes over.It's a really bad idea.
Anyway I can't believe that Cyber can't tunnel data from a home server to a public server, so the method that you keep up a line with become immaterial. Surely you could back haul the traffic over an ssh tunnel or an encapsulated link of some sort.
I use a Cisco 800-series ADSL2 router at home, 877W I believe, I've had it about 2 years and its been rock solid. Very good wireless coverage as well, much better than the consumer stuff I've had before.
I've heard of businesses in London getting 10Mbps commited bandwidth on a 100Mbps circuit for circa £5k per year - can pass the OP details if interest - but I think you have to be pretty central for this so may not be relevant, and there will be a fibre installation cost in the region of four-figures. Another client of mine uses Easynet Surestream 8Mbps synchronous (4 bonded SDSL circuits I believe) for £400/month, there's an SLA and generally it's been very reliable.
My personal approach to being 'online' is to hire half a rack in a colo centre, circa £400/month, dumped a c-class chassis and some blades in there running a mixture of ESXi and XenServer, I can virtualise everything I want and remote using Citrix XenDesktop or XenApp. 100Mbps to the rack up and down. Therefore 'my kit' is always online, if my home ADSL goes down I just jump on via 3G or somebody else's internet connection. This works well for me because everything I 'run' can easily be virtualised and doesn't need to be at home with me. Appreciate this may not work for everyone but it's a damned sight cheaper than having a 100Mbps leased line and a diesel generator in the back garden
I've heard of businesses in London getting 10Mbps commited bandwidth on a 100Mbps circuit for circa £5k per year - can pass the OP details if interest - but I think you have to be pretty central for this so may not be relevant, and there will be a fibre installation cost in the region of four-figures. Another client of mine uses Easynet Surestream 8Mbps synchronous (4 bonded SDSL circuits I believe) for £400/month, there's an SLA and generally it's been very reliable.
My personal approach to being 'online' is to hire half a rack in a colo centre, circa £400/month, dumped a c-class chassis and some blades in there running a mixture of ESXi and XenServer, I can virtualise everything I want and remote using Citrix XenDesktop or XenApp. 100Mbps to the rack up and down. Therefore 'my kit' is always online, if my home ADSL goes down I just jump on via 3G or somebody else's internet connection. This works well for me because everything I 'run' can easily be virtualised and doesn't need to be at home with me. Appreciate this may not work for everyone but it's a damned sight cheaper than having a 100Mbps leased line and a diesel generator in the back garden
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