Badly installed new boiler - advice please

[oldcynic]

About 3 weeks ago our cantral heating packed up - the old boiler had gone up in smoke (yes literally!)

So I was recommended a plumber by a work colleague - said plumber duly showed up and verbally quoted £1400 to replace with an Ideal which has a 5 year warranty. Didn't manage to get anyone else to come and look so accepted this and 3 very pleasant guys arrived and installed the boiler just before Christamas. I had also asked them to replace the 3-way valve which has been playing up for years, and the tank thermostat because the old one was not controlling the water temperature.

On leaving the property, they commented that the wiring was a bit funny and that there was no live feed to the boiler but it seemed OK.

We now have heating which works fine but still no control over the water temperature. So I called the guy and he's now quoting £150 for 4-5 hours work to re-wire our central heating system. When I queried this price he pointed out that this will include all new pieces of wire. He would also like this and the original £1400 in cash when he calls.

Somewhat frustrated with this and having a friend round for a quiet drink last night we spent 4 hours tracing all the wiring, drawing it all out, and googling how these things should work. We found that there was indeed no live feed to the boiler, that the earth wiring was disconnected in 2 places, and that the tank thermostat had all 3 wires in the wrong place. The boiler is taking its permanent live from the wire that demands hot water (which is permanently live whilst the heating is on), so when hot water is switched off at the timer the boiler has its power cut rather than being told to shut itself off.

The question is what to do next?

1. Finish the job myself on Saturday morning, given that I seem to be better at understanding the wiring than the plumber

2. Insist that the plumber come back and make good, because it that was my work I'd be embarrassed to leave it in that state, and if I change the wiring myself then I can't expect him to rectify any subsequent faults

3. Pay the plumber to come back because if I so much as move a wire I'll disappear in a fireball, and I shouldn't expect it to work after the first visit anyway

4. Report this bad workmanship to the gas-safe register so the guy can lose his licence and livelihood (does gas-safe cover the wiring?)

To be fair the wiring was probably wrong to start with, but surely they should have picked this up & sorted it out during the installation; also there was a blizzard outside by the time they left so later stages of the job were probably rushed in an effort to leave while they still could.

[Simpo Two]

I'm reading it that they did the job requested at the time but didn't alter the wiring whch they advised was wrong (and would not have quoted to change). They may have felt that was either outside the scope of the job, or there wasn't time to do it as well due to the winter rush etc.

If they did the wiring and got it wrong they should make it right at no extra cost; however if it is existing house wiring then I think the onus is with you to sort as you wish. I think I'd have been quite pleased to get three guys out in a blizzard. However as they want cash, which I presume is outside the agreement and will be to their benefit, then you may wish to thrash out a cash deal with them for the extra work if you dont want to tackle it. 20% tax on the labour element of £1400 is quite a lot!

Edited by Simpo Two on Friday 31st December 09:57

[Herbs]

Simpo Two said:

I'm reading it that they did the job requested at the time but didn't alter the wiring whch they advised was wrong (and would not have quoted to change). They may have felt that was either outside the scope of the job, or there wasn't time to do it as well due to the winter rush etc.

If they did the wiring and got it wrong they should make it right at no extra cost; however if it is existing house wiring then I think the onus is with you to sort as you wish.

+1

I'm currently renovating an old house and just about to replace the heating system as it has been bodged over the years - no way could I blame my plumber for that certainly no to the extent of trying to get him to lose his livelihood.

[98elise]

Sounds like they did what was asked. The fact that you say 3 pleasant guys came out and did the work just before christmas makes is sound like they were a decent bunch.

The controls (which are not part of the boiler) are also at fault. It took you 4 hours trace it all out and work out the issue, so £150 quote to rewire sounds reasonable.

Edited by 98elise on Friday 31st December 10:13

[oldcynic]

Fair enough. I'm certainly not out to ruin anyone's livelihood.

The original wiring was wrong but the plumber installed a boiler and tank thermostat to this incorrect wiring thus making it a bit of a grey area IMO - especially with not connecting a permanent live to the boiler. However having got this far I'm inclined to finish the job myself so that I know it's right.

The 4 hours I spent included finding out how central heating systems work and how it's all meant to be connected, also regular interruptions by children, present opening and cake eating. I would expect any competent professional to rewire 5 relatively simple devices to each other, 4 of them in the same cupboard, in about an hour - especially if they don't waste time looking at how it's currently wired. I'm expecting to be done in an hour or two tonight or tomorrow morning now that I know how it should work.

As for the cash I've told him to give me a bill and I'll give him a cheque as I'm not comfortable having that much cash in the house.

[Simpo Two]

oldcynic said:

The 4 hours I spent included finding out how central heating systems work and how it's all meant to be connected, also regular interruptions by children, present opening and cake eating. I would expect any competent professional to rewire 5 relatively simple devices to each other, 4 of them in the same cupboard, in about an hour

Although the plumber couldn't have known, when he quoted £150, exactly what the problem was or quite long it would take to fix. Anyway, it's up to you to accept, ignore or negotiate... you may decide to do it yourself and then you can be happy at how much you've saved



For my part, anyone who says 'I've got 150 products to photograph, it should only take you half an hour' will be directed to Google

[oldcynic]

I have now consulted the installation manual for the boiler which clearly states that the warranty will be invalidated if there is no permanent live connected to the boiler, so it is not correctly commisioned. He also can't have tested earth continuity (as required in the commissioning instructions) because the earth wire had been cut near the connecting block, and was also astray further up the line.

Have had one conversation with the plumber on this basis, which went badly, but he's now called back apologetically and arranged to come and investigate on Monday morning. I'll most likely get it sorted before then anyway now that I've got my head round it, but if not he's sounding much more amicable and I will be happy to pay to resolve problems which are above and beyond correctly installing the boiler & cylinder thermostat.

[Ricky_M]

Sounds like he has replaced a boiler without a Pump Over-run facility to one that has. The new boiler would require extra wires to be run from the pump/wiring centre. A permanent live and a live and neutral to control the pump independently to the boiler.

Most new boilers have low water content heat exchangers and require the pump to continue running after the burner has extinguished. This prevents the heat exchanger from warping, thus the reason the warranty would be invalidated.

If this is the case, it should have been included in the original quote, as the manufacturer insists upon it.

[Simpo Two]

oldcynic said:

stuff

Given the new information that sounds entirely fair.

[andy43]

Really, he shouldn't have completed the install knowing the wiring was 'funny'. At least not without discussing additional costs at the time, rather than as he was leaving. Not sure tbh, but should it be a proper part P electrician that wires a boiler up?

[Ricky_M]

There is an approved course Plumbers can take to enable them to wire up heating systems. Defined Scope Part P I think it was called when I did mine.

[nomisesor]

oldcynic said:

As for the cash I've told him to give me a bill and I'll give him a cheque as I'm not comfortable having that much cash in the house.

I'm sure he'll take care of the cash for you pretty speedily if you give him a call when you've got it!

[wolf1]

He quoted to fit a boiler so as far as I see it the boiler must be fitted and working correctly. He (or his employees) haven't done that so they should return and make good. It's not your fault or problem that the wiring needed adjusting etc as that's his job seeing as he's the supposed profesional.

[Simpo Two]

nomisesor said:

As for the cash I've told him to give me a bill and I'll give him a cheque as I'm not comfortable having that much cash in the house.

That despatches much of your negotiating power. If he's got to pay tax on it, that's +20% for starters.

Edited by Simpo Two on Friday 31st December 21:53

[oldcynic]

Well the conclusion is that I can't stand knowing the answer and waiting 3 days for it to be implemented (especially when the plumber didn't exactly inspire confidence with his knowledge & attitude). So I stripped out all the existing connections and about half the wiring - includng some which had been reused from the old boiler and was rather brittle at the boiler end.

Rewired from scratch using smart new junction box and utilising cable clamps across the board (which had also been ignored the previous time around), added live feed to boiler, corrected wiring to tank stat where all 3 connections had been wrong. Rechecked all connections. Fired up system one step at a time - now works perfectly. And yes the new boiler has a pump over-run - it runs through a boot-up cycle including the CH pump and some internal motors and then settles out after about 5 minutes

Total time this evening 2.75 hours, working from the wiring diagram in the boiler instruction manual. Would probably halve this time if I did it for a living.

3 questions remain:

1. Have I broken the law by wiring in my own boiler? Note I didn't touch the gas or water connections.

2. Is the boiler likely to have been damaged by running for 2 weeks without the over-run? Most of the time the boiler didn't actually shut off as the tank stat was corrected entirely wrongly therefore heating was demanded either 18 or 24 hours daily.

3. If I had been a arse about this and called the gas-safe people instead of the plumber, would this have caused him problems?

The answer to 3. interests me because as yet I haven't seen a written quote or invoice but I'm inclined to ask for a slice off the bill in view of the poor installation and his poor understanding of the system, although I haven't formulated any actual plan in this regard.

The answer to 2. is important because I don't want to end up with a failed boiler in a couple of years and have Ideal inspect it and declare that it has been installed incorrectly at some stage thereby invalidating the warranty. In fact if this is moderately likely then can I ask for an inspection now?

[oldcynic]

Simpo Two said:

nomisesor said:

As for the cash I've told him to give me a bill and I'll give him a cheque as I'm not comfortable having that much cash in the house.

That despatches much of your negotiating power. If he's got to pay tax on it, that's +20% for starters.

Edited by Simpo Two on Friday 31st December 21:53

There was no indication whatsoever that he wanted cash when he quoted for the installation. I may have sought an alternative company if he'd mentioned it before commencing work. Right now the money is in my bank account which can't exactly harm my position.

[Globs]

oldcynic said:

Rewired from scratch using smart new junction box and utilising cable clamps across the board (which had also been ignored the previous time around), added live feed to boiler, corrected wiring to tank stat where all 3 connections had been wrong. Rechecked all connections. Fired up system one step at a time - now works perfectly. And yes the new boiler has a pump over-run - it runs through a boot-up cycle including the CH pump and some internal motors and then settles out after about 5 minutes

Good for you, the PH way is to investigate, learn and fix stuff.
It's my experience in this world that it's less stress to learn and fix stuff yourself. Some people pay for learning like that.
Plus you only need to pay the original £1400.

As for legality - are you happy it is competently wired?
Remember the law is an ass, but the laws of physics are The Law, and are what will affect you.

[oldcynic]

Globs said:

As for legality - are you happy it is competently wired?
Remember the law is an ass, but the laws of physics are The Law, and are what will affect you.

I am now. I'd probably have re-checked any further work anyway after the experience so far.

I also now have a schematic of how the system is wired, including wire colours etc, which will aid any future fault-finding and avoid paying anyone else to do it.

[Simpo Two]

oldcynic said:

There was no indication whatsoever that he wanted cash when he quoted for the installation.

Well you wouldn't expect there to be would you!

oldcynic said:

I may have sought an alternative company if he'd mentioned it before commencing work.

Ah, you'd rather pay through the nose, OK.

oldcynic said:

Right now the money is in my bank account which can't exactly harm my position.

Glad you've fixed it yourself and saved whatever it was he might have charged you. There is always a certain satisfaction to be had in learning something new. It's probably illegal, but so is doing 31 in a 30 zone, and putting on your socks the wrong way round.

[oldcynic]

Simpo Two said:

oldcynic said:

There was no indication whatsoever that he wanted cash when he quoted for the installation.

Well you wouldn't expect there to be would you!

It's always been made clear to me in previous transactions if the quote is on the basis of cash in hand. I lived in Walthamstow for 3 years and nothing seems to go through the books round there, but the cash aspect was always made clear up front.

Simpo Two said:

oldcynic said:

I may have sought an alternative company if he'd mentioned it before commencing work.

Ah, you'd rather pay through the nose, OK.

In the circumstances this may have been a wise move. A less technically astute person would probably have been hit with a further bill for £150, and/or been left with a boiler with no warranty, scalding hot water out of the taps, and excessive energy bills from a brand new boiler which eventually fails prematurely.

Sometimes tax is not the only reason people want to avoid a paper trail, and at the very least I expect to make an informed choice