Uninsured Car Question - Legality

[Red Devil]

means that

caziques said:

Are people actually paid to think up this sort of rubbish!

So, if your insurance on a classic car runs out, you have to send a free tax disc to DVLA and declare SORN? Utter madness.

What happens with a motor traders insurance policy? or test driving?

Form V890 Guidance Notes said:

Motor Traders who have vehicles temporarily in their possession in
the course of their business are not required to make a SORN unless
the vehicle is registered in their name.

The requirement to declare SORN in order not to fall foul of CIE means that any unexpired tax disc has to be returned to DVLA and a refund given for any complete months remaining on it.

VED was introduced in 1920 and has not been ring fenced for over 70 years. Since 1937 it has all gone into the Treasury's central pot. It is an antiquated system long past its sell-by date and should be abolished. It won't happen though as the resulting spike in the unemployment figures in South Wales would be politically unacceptable.

[B'stard Child]

TallPaul said:

Richard C said:

The DVLA have very limited capability for dealing with scenarios, but althopugh the raft of orders, regultions and acts are badly worded and thought out there is no legal compulsion to surrender the VED. Send a special delivery letter retaing copy, informing them that you are declaring the car SORNed to comply with the Road Safety Act 2006 (Commencement No. 6) Order 2011. Complete this form and simply tell them that you are retaining and not surrendering the VED as is your prerogative.

Thats an interesting slant on the whole thing. I've had a quick trawl through the DVLA's website and although it says that if you surrender the VED, you must declare SORN, I cant find anywhere that says to declare a SORN, you must surrender the VED!

I'm actually wondering if I can declare SORN "on line" - and retain the VED..........

As a result not using a form that has "guidance notes" which I won't comply with

Just going to see what comes up on the website

[B'stard Child]

OK went thro the on-line process and SORN'd the car (only need reg doc ref number and reg number).

Stepped thro the stages and SORN now declared (backdated to 01/06/11

Only time on-line system mentioned VED currently on the car was as the car was currently taxed till end of 2011 it gave a link to the refund application and said I may be eligable for a refund - which I chose not to use.

Cool beans - didn't stop me declaring a SORN so I'm now compliant with a daft law

[saaby93]

B'stard Child said:

OK went thro the on-line process and SORN'd the car (only need reg doc ref number and reg number).

Stepped thro the stages and SORN now declared (backdated to 01/06/11

Did it automatically backdate or could you date it today?
Last time I looked it would only work to whole months i.e. nominally SORN from today but only give a tax refund from end of this month but SORN from beginning of this month so lose a month in no-man's land

[B'stard Child]

saaby93 said:

B'stard Child said:

OK went thro the on-line process and SORN'd the car (only need reg doc ref number and reg number).

Stepped thro the stages and SORN now declared (backdated to 01/06/11

Did it automatically backdate or could you date it today?
Last time I looked it would only work to whole months i.e. nominally SORN from today but only give a tax refund from end of this month but SORN from beginning of this month so lose a month in no-man's land

Automaticly backdated - no option to declare SORN from a specific date

not sure what you mean by a month in no mans land TBH

You can only ever claim VED refunds for remaining complete months so if I'm looking at the current month it's now effictively SORN for the whole month.

[saaby93]

B'stard Child said:

Automaticly backdated - no option to declare SORN from a specific date
not sure what you mean by a month in no mans land TBH
You can only ever claim VED refunds for remaining complete months so if I'm looking at the current month it's now effictively SORN for the whole month.

thats what I meant
If you look at the legislation (section 4) there's no such restriction you can SORN from today or anytime
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/2742/conte...
(although up until now for most people that would be at the beginning/end of month when tax runs out - unless theyve purchased half way through a month)

Edited by saaby93 on Saturday 18th June 11:19

[Zeeky]

caziques said:

So, if your insurance on a classic car runs out, you have to send a free tax disc to DVLA and declare SORN? Utter madness.

Why does it matter that the tax disc is free? The idea is that a regsitered vehicle is either being used on the roads (in which case it it must be taxed) or not being used on the roads (in which case it is sorn'd). It removes the grey area of a taxed but uninsured vehicle being kept off-road (and so not sorn'd) and a taxed and uninsured vehicle being used on the road.

By forcing registered keepers to make unequivocal declarations as to whether or not a vehicle is being used on-road or off-road uninsured vehicles that might be used on the roads can be detected without actually being seen on the road.

Although it does appear to be causing a lot of inconvenience when people buy and sell their cars which can only be remedied by very expensive short-term insurance cover.

[Richard C]

B'stard Child said:

OK went thro the on-line process and SORN'd the car (only need reg doc ref number and reg number).

Stepped thro the stages and SORN now declared (backdated to 01/06/11

Only time on-line system mentioned VED currently on the car was as the car was currently taxed till end of 2011 it gave a link to the refund application and said I may be eligable for a refund - which I chose not to use.

Cool beans - didn't stop me declaring a SORN so I'm now compliant with a daft law

Good man
Shows the V890 guidance notes are unenforceable DVLA dream-thinking, not law

[saaby93]

Zeeky said:

By forcing registered keepers to make unequivocal declarations as to whether or not a vehicle is being used on-road or off-road uninsured vehicles that might be used on the roads can be detected without actually being seen on the road.

As previoulsy stated, and taking it to the limit at what point do you declare it off road? every night? if you go on hoiliday for a couple of weeks and leave it in the garden?
In practice it's none of those. What they really want you to declare is whether it's uninsured. If it's insured and taxed they dont care if it's on or off road

[saaby93]

Richard C said:

Good man
Shows the V890 guidance notes are unenforceable DVLA dream-thinking, not law

We already knew that.
It would have been worth a clap if he'd managed to correctly SORN from the date rather than go for month boundaries.
Otherwise it's nothing new

[Terminator X]

If I'm selling a car I just (a) sell my car 1st (b) when it's gone leave the insurance in place / running (c) buy next car & transfer insurance over. Surprised that not everyone does that tbh.

TX.

[B'stard Child]

Terminator X said:

If I'm selling a car I just (a) sell my car 1st (b) when it's gone leave the insurance in place / running (c) buy next car & transfer insurance over. Surprised that not everyone does that tbh.

TX.

Good for you

- You've never bought a "new" car before you've sold your "old" one then......

- You have no need for a car on a daily basis

- You don't have a "vanity" plate

All the points above complicate the situation as a result of the continuous insurance requirements

[B'stard Child]

saaby93 said:

Richard C said:

Good man
Shows the V890 guidance notes are unenforceable DVLA dream-thinking, not law

We already knew that.
It would have been worth a clap if he'd managed to correctly SORN from the date rather than go for month boundaries.
Otherwise it's nothing new

This might help - From the email confirmation

Thank you for using DVLA Vehicle Licensing Online (www.taxdisc.direct.gov.uk).

Your SORN declaration has been successful.

Reference Number: 9092 7443 9154 6523
Vehicle Registration Mark: Y735 FBW
Application made on: 18/06/2011 09:17:53
SORN Period: 12 months

The SORN confirmation letter should arrive in the post within 4 weeks.

I'm guessing here but the system appears to work in full months for the purpose of expiry

So whilst you can SORN on a specific date at any time within a month the calculation of the renewal of the SORN is based on 12 mths so once the On line database is updated I should see that the expiration of the SORN is 30/06/12

[saaby93]

B'stard Child said:

Hmm a different slant and potentially a way round the problem I face currently

However

Guidance notes

• You should not use this form if the vehicle is taxed and no longer used on the
public road. You need to return the disc (including nil value discs) to DVLA and
make a SORN using Application for a refund of vehicle tax when you have the
tax disc (V14) instead.

I think we've previously found that note is going to be deleted from the form otherwise you cant SORN if your car is taxed

B'stard Child said:

This might help - From the email confirmation
Thank you for using DVLA Vehicle Licensing Online (www.taxdisc.direct.gov.uk).
Your SORN declaration has been successful.
Reference Number: 9092 7443 9154 6523
Vehicle Registration Mark: Y735 FBW
Application made on: 18/06/2011 09:17:53
SORN Period: 12 months
The SORN confirmation letter should arrive in the post within 4 weeks.
I'm guessing here but the system appears to work in full months for the purpose of expiry
So whilst you can SORN on a specific date at any time within a month the calculation of the renewal of the SORN is based on 12 mths so once the On line database is updated I should see that the expiration of the SORN is 30/06/12

That is very helpful
The theory goes that DVLA will automatically and incorrectly cancel your tax from beginning of June too.
Is there an online tax checker?

[B'stard Child]

saaby93 said:

[That is very helpful
The theory goes that DVLA will automatically and incorrectly cancel your tax from beginning of June too.
Is there an online tax checker?

Yep direct gov vehicle enquiry

http://www.taxdisc.direct.gov.uk/EvlPortalApp/appl...

[B'stard Child]

Sorry top bump this up but

DVLA Vehicle check today said:

The vehicle details for Y735 FBW are:

Date of Liability 01 06 2012
Date of First Registration 01 03 2001
Year of Manufacture 2001
Cylinder Capacity (cc) 1598CC
CO2 Emissions 170g/Km
Fuel Type Petrol
Export Marker Not Applicable
Vehicle Status SORN Not Due
Vehicle Colour BLACK
Vehicle Type Approval M1
Vehicle Excise Duty Rate for vehicle
6 Months Rate £104.50
12 Months Rate £190.00

Sorted then - officially SORN (with a tax disc expiring end Nov 2011 in the window)

And refering to the DVLA

What is SORN?

Statutory Off Road Notification (SORN) means that, by law, when a keeper of a vehicle does not tax a vehicle because it is not being used or kept on a public road, DVLA must be told. A SORN is valid for 12 months unless you tax, sell, permanently export or scrap the vehicle before the 12 months have expired. The legislation that covers SORN is the Road Vehicles (Registration and Licensing) Regulations 2002.

So as soon as I sell it SORN is no longer valid - new buyer will have his own insurance, car is MOT'd for 12mths, taxed till end Nov 2011

What have I missed

Edited for clarity

Edited by B'stard Child on Tuesday 21st June 23:52

[saaby93]

B'stard Child said:

Sorted then - officially SORN (with a tax disc expiring end Nov 2011 in the window)

have you checked the online tax checker?

[B'stard Child]

saaby93 said:

B'stard Child said:

Sorted then - officially SORN (with a tax disc expiring end Nov 2011 in the window)

have you checked the online tax checker?

Yep - all details in the previous post I did

Maybe I need to make it clearer??

[saaby93]

B'stard Child said:

saaby93 said:

B'stard Child said:

Sorted then - officially SORN (with a tax disc expiring end Nov 2011 in the window)

have you checked the online tax checker?

Yep - all details in the previous post I did
Maybe I need to make it clearer??

Although you still have the disc apparantly they may cancel it at source so you have to buy a new one later
How do you check for that?
There's nothing in your previous post about it still being taxed (apart from you having the disc)

Edited by saaby93 on Wednesday 22 June 00:03

[B'stard Child]

saaby93 said:

B'stard Child said:

saaby93 said:

B'stard Child said:

Sorted then - officially SORN (with a tax disc expiring end Nov 2011 in the window)

have you checked the online tax checker?

Yep - all details in the previous post I did
Maybe I need to make it clearer??

Although you still have the disc apparantly they may cancel it at source so you have to buy a new one later How do you check for that?

Well if they did that they'd have request I returned the disc before they send me a refund.

We'll have to see which way it goes

Bottom line there is only person out of pocket right now if I've SORN'd a currently taxed car (in order to comply with the new CI requirements) without surrendering the tax. And that's me

And it's still cheaper than insuring a car that I'm not using and should be sold soon.

saaby93 said:

There's nothing in your previous post about it still being taxed (apart from you having the disc)

I see where you are coming from - let me put it this way

I have completed a "Statutory Off the Road Notice" in order to inform DVLA that it's not being used on the road (and in order to comply with new CI regs)

The only online check for tax I know off is the same one used for SORN.....

I have the disc - I've not defrauded DVLA to obtain it (like bounced a cheque purchasing it) so it's not invalid in any way

Previously SORN was purely related to VED - they want to use the same process to cover insurance then I'm sure they've thought out all the senarios and all this would have been anticipated........

Edited by B'stard Child on Wednesday 22 June 00:20