Horses On The Roads - What's the Law?
Discussion
Grommit said:
If a horse is so nervous that it cannot tolerate the sound of an engine on tickover, then it has no place on the road, particularly with a learner rider on it. This happened to me recently when I pulled in to let some horses past and was told to turn my engine off, as the horses were nervous and some of the riders were beginners. That is to my mind completely irresponsible.
It may irresponsible to a degree depending on circumstances.But – everyone has to learn somewhere at some time. (including the horses)
Using the road during rush hour in bad light is irresponsible.
Using the road on a clear day, at a quiet time is fine.
It is perhaps as irresponsible as taking a learner driver out on a road who does 25mph in a NSL area and causes a 2 mile queue. (happened to me the other day)
Or the tractor that drives at 15 mph.
Or the farmer driving a flock of sheep or herd of cows down the roads.
Or the kid, on the big road on his bike for the first time going a bit slow with parents shielding them.
There are loads of different 'things' that use the roads, and we all have to remember to play nice with one another.
It's fair enough to be annoyed by delays. Even the most mild mannered janitor might start to grumble when they get asked to turn off the engine so a nervous horse can walk past, or they have to sit in a long queue of slow traffic.
But really, it's not the end of the world.
It's just modern traffic conditions.
Grommit said:
Sorry if I'm being a bit thick here but does that mean it's been dropped? You make no mention of any further action!
There are quite a lot of horses round where I live and most of the riders are courteous and polite, but there are quite a few who are not. If a horse is so nervous that it cannot tolerate the sound of an engine on tickover, then it has no place on the road, particularly with a learner rider on it. This happened to me recently when I pulled in to let some horses past and was told to turn my engine off, as the horses were nervous and some of the riders were beginners. That is to my mind completely irresponsible.
My main complaint about horse riders on the road though is the seemingly increasingly fashionable practice of taking a Jack Russell & a Lurcher with them, which they then have no control over when they meet other dogs (or traffic). Why does riding a horse set them beyond the rules governing keeping you dog under control?
It's in the hands of the CPS. His solicitor told him that if he gets a warning, take it. If he gets a driving awareness course, take it. If he gets taken to court on a careless driving charge, he could get between 3 and 9 points (they usually go for 6 points apparently) and a fine, and the solicitor told him to fight that. There are quite a lot of horses round where I live and most of the riders are courteous and polite, but there are quite a few who are not. If a horse is so nervous that it cannot tolerate the sound of an engine on tickover, then it has no place on the road, particularly with a learner rider on it. This happened to me recently when I pulled in to let some horses past and was told to turn my engine off, as the horses were nervous and some of the riders were beginners. That is to my mind completely irresponsible.
My main complaint about horse riders on the road though is the seemingly increasingly fashionable practice of taking a Jack Russell & a Lurcher with them, which they then have no control over when they meet other dogs (or traffic). Why does riding a horse set them beyond the rules governing keeping you dog under control?
I used to cycle to work across the south downs, a distance off-road of some 11 miles each way. I was fit, as can be imagined, in those days and could get up quite a speed. I used to meet the occasional walker/hiker and if I'd set out in good time I'd stop for a chat. I even became mates with the local farmer.
One Saturday morning, around 8.30, I was off to work and was riding along the South Downs Way when I came across half a dozen or so horses galloping towards me although some distance away. Where I was was quite open but if I'd have carried on I would have met the horses in a narrowed part of the Way between two fences. So I slowed. The riders stopped in the narrow bit, completely blocking it.
I told the woman who was taking the lead that I was coming through, I thought very politely, and asked if she could put her horse longways rather than across the right of way.
She told me that cyclists has to give way to horses and that I should wait. I pointed out that I had given way and now it was her time to do the same, still politely.
I was told to f--k off and wait until she decided to move.
It is fair to say that most of the others with her appeared quite shocked and had moved their horses to allow passage, no more than they should have done of course.
I told her that a bridleway was a road and she was creating an unnecessary obstruction by deliberately blocking my free passage.
I then got: Unless you are a f--king policeman you can go and . . . well guess the rest.
I said I was indeed a police officer and if she did not abate the obstruction I would report her.
She obviously wasn't certain that I was a police officer but decided not to challenge it. She eventually moved over, telling me to take care as her horse kicked. As I went past I said: Now that wsn't too difficult, was it. I thanked all the other riders, even the one who only just allowed enough room.
I described the horse and rider to a horsey friend who told me who the woman was. I meant to go to see her in her stables but never got around to it. I did see her a couple of other times, once when she gave me a dirty look as I passed and I said: Good morning, Mrs ****. You're not looking well. I should take it easy.
The problem is that her performance, and it has to be said a few 9thers, is the one that sticks in the mind. The hundreds of reasonable riders are forgotten.
I was told that if I was ever approaching a horse from behind I should call out to the rider to warn them and ask if it is ok to pass. Most will stop and pull over. Soem asked for me to dismount and that's no problem. Bells seem to upset riders a bit so I did not use it.
I've had one or two stroppy hikers, one of whom attacked he with a walking stick, but the ones I remember easiest are those I've stopped to chat with and in one case shared their chicken when they'd stopped for a picnic and were confused as to where they actually were.
What irritated me for some reason was that I was using the bridleway for its original purpose: for passing and repassing, i.e. using it for a route between two points. The riders and hikers were already at their destination as they were using it for recreational purposes.
I have to say that I am a bit careful of riders on bridleways despite the majority being very pleasant. I live near a race course and have learnt to avoid racehorses being exercised. They never seem under control.
One Saturday morning, around 8.30, I was off to work and was riding along the South Downs Way when I came across half a dozen or so horses galloping towards me although some distance away. Where I was was quite open but if I'd have carried on I would have met the horses in a narrowed part of the Way between two fences. So I slowed. The riders stopped in the narrow bit, completely blocking it.
I told the woman who was taking the lead that I was coming through, I thought very politely, and asked if she could put her horse longways rather than across the right of way.
She told me that cyclists has to give way to horses and that I should wait. I pointed out that I had given way and now it was her time to do the same, still politely.
I was told to f--k off and wait until she decided to move.
It is fair to say that most of the others with her appeared quite shocked and had moved their horses to allow passage, no more than they should have done of course.
I told her that a bridleway was a road and she was creating an unnecessary obstruction by deliberately blocking my free passage.
I then got: Unless you are a f--king policeman you can go and . . . well guess the rest.
I said I was indeed a police officer and if she did not abate the obstruction I would report her.
She obviously wasn't certain that I was a police officer but decided not to challenge it. She eventually moved over, telling me to take care as her horse kicked. As I went past I said: Now that wsn't too difficult, was it. I thanked all the other riders, even the one who only just allowed enough room.
I described the horse and rider to a horsey friend who told me who the woman was. I meant to go to see her in her stables but never got around to it. I did see her a couple of other times, once when she gave me a dirty look as I passed and I said: Good morning, Mrs ****. You're not looking well. I should take it easy.
The problem is that her performance, and it has to be said a few 9thers, is the one that sticks in the mind. The hundreds of reasonable riders are forgotten.
I was told that if I was ever approaching a horse from behind I should call out to the rider to warn them and ask if it is ok to pass. Most will stop and pull over. Soem asked for me to dismount and that's no problem. Bells seem to upset riders a bit so I did not use it.
I've had one or two stroppy hikers, one of whom attacked he with a walking stick, but the ones I remember easiest are those I've stopped to chat with and in one case shared their chicken when they'd stopped for a picnic and were confused as to where they actually were.
What irritated me for some reason was that I was using the bridleway for its original purpose: for passing and repassing, i.e. using it for a route between two points. The riders and hikers were already at their destination as they were using it for recreational purposes.
I have to say that I am a bit careful of riders on bridleways despite the majority being very pleasant. I live near a race course and have learnt to avoid racehorses being exercised. They never seem under control.
King Fisher said:
Well, it's over and done with. He got a solicitor who drives an MX5, whose brother-in-law had restored a TVR, and whose business partner is looking at buying a porsche or TVR; he knew his cars, and fought my son's corner well.
Did plod charge him with anything? Or just a verbal b
king?Cyberprog said:
King Fisher said:
Well, it's over and done with. He got a solicitor who drives an MX5, whose brother-in-law had restored a TVR, and whose business partner is looking at buying a porsche or TVR; he knew his cars, and fought my son's corner well.
Did plod charge him with anything? Or just a verbal bking?kings are for people who don't read the thread. 
Cyberprog said:
Did plod charge him with anything? Or just a verbal bking?
No, he was told it's in the hand of the Crown Prosecution Service to decide whether it's worth taking it to court. I'm not up to speed with the exact costs, but I imagine it's fairly expensive to drag someone to court for something like this? king?Several posts on this thread seem to me to need some kind of response:
Firstly the OP - Given that the "story" told by the "victims" to the police, is there not any chance of a counter-accusation of conspiricy to pervert the course of justice, or something similar. It seems to me like they've collaborated on a made up story and also roped in one of their mates to coroborate. They really shouldn't be allowed to get away with this.
Now on to the subject of horses on the road. Yes, I understand what the law says, but then again there's also common courtesy, and also common sense. Horses frequently do their business all over the road. To this day I've NEVER seen a horse rider stop to clear it up. What about other road users? Cyclists? Pedestrians, kids etc crossing the road. Sometimes there's so much of it, it' very difficult to avoid.
I live in rural Bucks, and I get stuck behind horses frequently, sometimes it's totally ok, other times it quite definitely is not. The speed and "style" with which I pass a horse (or horses) I consider to be my choice, and it quite definitely SHOULD NOT be dictated to me by the person riding the horse. They're making their choice by riding the horse on the road (there are plenty of fields in my local area), I will pass them in a manner that I see fit. It is not their place to pre-judge what I am going to do. If they really feel the need to tell off every car driver who comes within 100yds, have they really thought through the viability of their "hobby". The year is 2011 after all.
Firstly the OP - Given that the "story" told by the "victims" to the police, is there not any chance of a counter-accusation of conspiricy to pervert the course of justice, or something similar. It seems to me like they've collaborated on a made up story and also roped in one of their mates to coroborate. They really shouldn't be allowed to get away with this.
Now on to the subject of horses on the road. Yes, I understand what the law says, but then again there's also common courtesy, and also common sense. Horses frequently do their business all over the road. To this day I've NEVER seen a horse rider stop to clear it up. What about other road users? Cyclists? Pedestrians, kids etc crossing the road. Sometimes there's so much of it, it' very difficult to avoid.
I live in rural Bucks, and I get stuck behind horses frequently, sometimes it's totally ok, other times it quite definitely is not. The speed and "style" with which I pass a horse (or horses) I consider to be my choice, and it quite definitely SHOULD NOT be dictated to me by the person riding the horse. They're making their choice by riding the horse on the road (there are plenty of fields in my local area), I will pass them in a manner that I see fit. It is not their place to pre-judge what I am going to do. If they really feel the need to tell off every car driver who comes within 100yds, have they really thought through the viability of their "hobby". The year is 2011 after all.
omniflow said:
Several posts on this thread seem to me to need some kind of response:
Firstly the OP - Given that the "story" told by the "victims" to the police, is there not any chance of a counter-accusation of conspiricy to pervert the course of justice, or something similar. It seems to me like they've collaborated on a made up story and also roped in one of their mates to coroborate. They really shouldn't be allowed to get away with this.
Now on to the subject of horses on the road. Yes, I understand what the law says, but then again there's also common courtesy, and also common sense. Horses frequently do their business all over the road. To this day I've NEVER seen a horse rider stop to clear it up. What about other road users? Cyclists? Pedestrians, kids etc crossing the road. Sometimes there's so much of it, it' very difficult to avoid.
I live in rural Bucks, and I get stuck behind horses frequently, sometimes it's totally ok, other times it quite definitely is not. The speed and "style" with which I pass a horse (or horses) I consider to be my choice, and it quite definitely SHOULD NOT be dictated to me by the person riding the horse. They're making their choice by riding the horse on the road (there are plenty of fields in my local area), I will pass them in a manner that I see fit. It is not their place to pre-judge what I am going to do. If they really feel the need to tell off every car driver who comes within 100yds, have they really thought through the viability of their "hobby". The year is 2011 after all.
What's the relevance of the bold part? Round our neck of the woods, there are plenty of fields, but the other half can't ride in them - the owners don't allow horse riders..Firstly the OP - Given that the "story" told by the "victims" to the police, is there not any chance of a counter-accusation of conspiricy to pervert the course of justice, or something similar. It seems to me like they've collaborated on a made up story and also roped in one of their mates to coroborate. They really shouldn't be allowed to get away with this.
Now on to the subject of horses on the road. Yes, I understand what the law says, but then again there's also common courtesy, and also common sense. Horses frequently do their business all over the road. To this day I've NEVER seen a horse rider stop to clear it up. What about other road users? Cyclists? Pedestrians, kids etc crossing the road. Sometimes there's so much of it, it' very difficult to avoid.
I live in rural Bucks, and I get stuck behind horses frequently, sometimes it's totally ok, other times it quite definitely is not. The speed and "style" with which I pass a horse (or horses) I consider to be my choice, and it quite definitely SHOULD NOT be dictated to me by the person riding the horse. They're making their choice by riding the horse on the road (there are plenty of fields in my local area), I will pass them in a manner that I see fit. It is not their place to pre-judge what I am going to do. If they really feel the need to tell off every car driver who comes within 100yds, have they really thought through the viability of their "hobby". The year is 2011 after all.
rscott said:
What's the relevance of the bold part? Round our neck of the woods, there are plenty of fields, but the other half can't ride in them - the owners don't allow horse riders..
It's quite simple really. If you can afford to buy a horse, then buy a field to ride it in. If you borrow or hire a horse, then ride it in the field that belongs to the people you borrowed / hired it from.Unless of course you're going to tell me that it's "natural" or even "historic" that horses are ridden on tarmac roads.
omniflow said:
It's quite simple really. If you can afford to buy a horse, then buy a field to ride it in. If you borrow or hire a horse, then ride it in the field that belongs to the people you borrowed / hired it from.
Unless of course you're going to tell me that it's "natural" or even "historic" that horses are ridden on tarmac roads.
It might be natural or even historic but the fact is that it is a right. Horses have a right of way on almost all roads, footpaths being the exception. They can be banned from certain roads but an alternative must (should?) be in place.Unless of course you're going to tell me that it's "natural" or even "historic" that horses are ridden on tarmac roads.
If you live in an area where horses and horse boxes are found regularly then you should consider this when timing your drive.
Horses are normally being ridden from one off-road area to another.
omniflow said:
Horses frequently do their business all over the road. To this day I've NEVER seen a horse rider stop to clear it up. What about other road users? Cyclists? Pedestrians, kids etc crossing the road. Sometimes there's so much of it, it' very difficult to avoid.
(I believe the following to be true – but good fuel for discussion if it;'s not.)I believe that they don't have to.
Horses are herbivores. Horse crap is nothing more than decaying grass and hay.
It's not poisonous or toxic.
I think that they can just leave it.
It is no worse than mud, and much less dangerous than dead badgers or rabbits.
I passed some horses the other day.
There were 4 horses with children on riding 4 in a line.
They had 8 parents walking as outriders wearing high vis jackets.
They were visible. They were in the middle of the road. They were holding up traffic.
But, they were polite.
Cars were slowing, and passing.
The pedestrians and riders were all waving thankyou – almost to the point of absurdity when the 10the person waves thanks.)
The roads aren't just for cars.
The roads are for all sorts of road users – and all road users need to be treat other road users with respect.
Just chill out and play nice.
omniflow said:
Several posts on this thread seem to me to need some kind of response:
Firstly the OP - Given that the "story" told by the "victims" to the police, is there not any chance of a counter-accusation of conspiricy to pervert the course of justice, or something similar. It seems to me like they've collaborated on a made up story and also roped in one of their mates to coroborate. They really shouldn't be allowed to get away with this.
Now on to the subject of horses on the road. Yes, I understand what the law says, but then again there's also common courtesy, and also common sense. Horses frequently do their business all over the road. To this day I've NEVER seen a horse rider stop to clear it up. What about other road users? Cyclists? Pedestrians, kids etc crossing the road. Sometimes there's so much of it, it' very difficult to avoid.
I live in rural Bucks, and I get stuck behind horses frequently, sometimes it's totally ok, other times it quite definitely is not. The speed and "style" with which I pass a horse (or horses) I consider to be my choice, and it quite definitely SHOULD NOT be dictated to me by the person riding the horse. They're making their choice by riding the horse on the road (there are plenty of fields in my local area), I will pass them in a manner that I see fit. It is not their place to pre-judge what I am going to do. If they really feel the need to tell off every car driver who comes within 100yds, have they really thought through the viability of their "hobby". The year is 2011 after all.
I'm guessing the CPS will believe the 4 witnesses vs 1 though? So they'd probably say my son is trying to pervert the course of justice? However, I doubt that they would say that at all as it isn't THAT serious a case in the grand scheme of things. Firstly the OP - Given that the "story" told by the "victims" to the police, is there not any chance of a counter-accusation of conspiricy to pervert the course of justice, or something similar. It seems to me like they've collaborated on a made up story and also roped in one of their mates to coroborate. They really shouldn't be allowed to get away with this.
Now on to the subject of horses on the road. Yes, I understand what the law says, but then again there's also common courtesy, and also common sense. Horses frequently do their business all over the road. To this day I've NEVER seen a horse rider stop to clear it up. What about other road users? Cyclists? Pedestrians, kids etc crossing the road. Sometimes there's so much of it, it' very difficult to avoid.
I live in rural Bucks, and I get stuck behind horses frequently, sometimes it's totally ok, other times it quite definitely is not. The speed and "style" with which I pass a horse (or horses) I consider to be my choice, and it quite definitely SHOULD NOT be dictated to me by the person riding the horse. They're making their choice by riding the horse on the road (there are plenty of fields in my local area), I will pass them in a manner that I see fit. It is not their place to pre-judge what I am going to do. If they really feel the need to tell off every car driver who comes within 100yds, have they really thought through the viability of their "hobby". The year is 2011 after all.
There is also a difference of opinion I think; my son's car is, by its nature, loud, and accelerates quickly compared to the average car. This may be why the horse riders thought he 'roared off'. However, the bit about wheel spinning for 3 seconds is a load of rubbish, if he'd done that he'd have left some big number 11s behind, and I've driven that road numerous times since the incident and there are no marks whatsoever. Also, their 'independent' witness is a horse trainer.......I smell a rat with that one!
Ok folks, an update! Nick has been summoned to court. On his summons, it states that:
"On 19/09/2011 at HAXBY, YORK, NORTH YORKSHIRE, with intent to cause (horse riders names omitted for obvious reasons) harassment, alarm or distress, used threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour or disorderly behaviour, thereby causing that person or another harassment, alarm or distress.
- LEGISLATION: 'Contrary to Section 4A(1) and (5) of the Public Order Act 1986.'
- CCCJS CODE: PU86116'
- ACPO: '7.6.17.1'
- PNLD CODE: 'H350'
Contrary to Section 4A(1) and (5) of the Public Order Act 1986."
The witness statements are attached (full of many errors and outright lies I may add!). Now, my main question is this; Nick was sent an NIP for Careless Driving. This summons doesn't mention careless driving. Am I now right in thinking that he is being taken to court for a breach of the peace and NOT a driving offence? If so, can they still give him points for this?
Thanks,
Tony
"On 19/09/2011 at HAXBY, YORK, NORTH YORKSHIRE, with intent to cause (horse riders names omitted for obvious reasons) harassment, alarm or distress, used threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour or disorderly behaviour, thereby causing that person or another harassment, alarm or distress.
- LEGISLATION: 'Contrary to Section 4A(1) and (5) of the Public Order Act 1986.'
- CCCJS CODE: PU86116'
- ACPO: '7.6.17.1'
- PNLD CODE: 'H350'
Contrary to Section 4A(1) and (5) of the Public Order Act 1986."
The witness statements are attached (full of many errors and outright lies I may add!). Now, my main question is this; Nick was sent an NIP for Careless Driving. This summons doesn't mention careless driving. Am I now right in thinking that he is being taken to court for a breach of the peace and NOT a driving offence? If so, can they still give him points for this?
Thanks,
Tony
King Fisher said:
Contrary to Section 4A(1) and (5) of the Public Order Act 1986."
The witness statements are attached (full of many errors and outright lies I may add!). Now, my main question is this; Nick was sent an NIP for Careless Driving. This summons doesn't mention careless driving. Am I now right in thinking that he is being taken to court for a breach of the peace and NOT a driving offence? If so, can they still give him points for this?
Thanks,
Tony
Have a look at page 86 of this document:The witness statements are attached (full of many errors and outright lies I may add!). Now, my main question is this; Nick was sent an NIP for Careless Driving. This summons doesn't mention careless driving. Am I now right in thinking that he is being taken to court for a breach of the peace and NOT a driving offence? If so, can they still give him points for this?
Thanks,
Tony
http://tinyurl.com/65z9cm7
Orillion said:
Defendant is charged with s.4A (page 87) not s.4 (page 86).King Fisher said:
Contrary to Section 4A(1) and (5) of the Public Order Act 1986."
The witness statements are attached (full of many errors and outright lies I may add!). Now, my main question is this; Nick was sent an NIP for Careless Driving. This summons doesn't mention careless driving. Am I now right in thinking that he is being taken to court for a breach of the peace and NOT a driving offence? If so, can they still give him points for this?
Thanks,
Tony
Not careless driving or "breach of the peace"The witness statements are attached (full of many errors and outright lies I may add!). Now, my main question is this; Nick was sent an NIP for Careless Driving. This summons doesn't mention careless driving. Am I now right in thinking that he is being taken to court for a breach of the peace and NOT a driving offence? If so, can they still give him points for this?
Thanks,
Tony
One offence. s 4A POA 1986
Court can disqualify him from driving for this offence (for any length) but can't endorse his licence with pp.
agtlaw]ing Fisher said:
Contrary to Section 4A(1) and (5) of the Public Order Act 1986."
The witness statements are attached (full of many errors and outright lies I may add!). Now, my main question is this; Nick was sent an NIP for Careless Driving. This summons doesn't mention careless driving. Am I now right in thinking that he is being taken to court for a breach of the peace and NOT a driving offence? If so, can they still give him points for this?
Thanks,
Tony
Not careless driving or "breach of the peace"The witness statements are attached (full of many errors and outright lies I may add!). Now, my main question is this; Nick was sent an NIP for Careless Driving. This summons doesn't mention careless driving. Am I now right in thinking that he is being taken to court for a breach of the peace and NOT a driving offence? If so, can they still give him points for this?
Thanks,
Tony
One offence. s 4A POA 1986
Court can disqualify him from driving for this offence (for any length) but can't endorse his licence with pp.
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