Horses On The Roads - What's the Law?
Discussion
King Fisher said:
agtlaw said:
King Fisher said:
Contrary to Section 4A(1) and (5) of the Public Order Act 1986."
The witness statements are attached (full of many errors and outright lies I may add!). Now, my main question is this; Nick was sent an NIP for Careless Driving. This summons doesn't mention careless driving. Am I now right in thinking that he is being taken to court for a breach of the peace and NOT a driving offence? If so, can they still give him points for this?
Thanks,
Tony
Not careless driving or "breach of the peace"The witness statements are attached (full of many errors and outright lies I may add!). Now, my main question is this; Nick was sent an NIP for Careless Driving. This summons doesn't mention careless driving. Am I now right in thinking that he is being taken to court for a breach of the peace and NOT a driving offence? If so, can they still give him points for this?
Thanks,
Tony
One offence. s 4A POA 1986
Court can disqualify him from driving for this offence (for any length) but can't endorse his licence with pp.
Yes they can disqualify him (though they don't have to) & the NIP stuff is now an irrelevance. No need to show his exact speed either, excessive speed can be 10mph if the circumstances demand 5mph.
vonhosen said:
When he has seen/heard the prosecution case he'll know how it is alleged that he has intended to cause harassment, alarm or distress (just one of those needed) & what the disorderly behaviour was considered to be.
Yes they can disqualify him (though they don't have to) & the NIP stuff is now an irrelevance. No need to show his exact speed either, excessive speed can be 10mph if the circumstances demand 5mph.
Surely the fact he braked for the horses and stopped to ask what was the reason for them flagging him down means he wasn't travelling at excessive speed?Yes they can disqualify him (though they don't have to) & the NIP stuff is now an irrelevance. No need to show his exact speed either, excessive speed can be 10mph if the circumstances demand 5mph.
King Fisher said:
vonhosen said:
When he has seen/heard the prosecution case he'll know how it is alleged that he has intended to cause harassment, alarm or distress (just one of those needed) & what the disorderly behaviour was considered to be.
Yes they can disqualify him (though they don't have to) & the NIP stuff is now an irrelevance. No need to show his exact speed either, excessive speed can be 10mph if the circumstances demand 5mph.
Surely the fact he braked for the horses and stopped to ask what was the reason for them flagging him down means he wasn't travelling at excessive speed?Yes they can disqualify him (though they don't have to) & the NIP stuff is now an irrelevance. No need to show his exact speed either, excessive speed can be 10mph if the circumstances demand 5mph.
King Fisher said:
This is absolutely insane. I cannot believe what I'm reading.
Why ?It's about unreasonable behaviour that results in alarm, distress etc.
Were the people alarmed, distressed etc ?
Evidently they were.
Did your friends behaviour amount to disorderly behaviour ?
The court listen to the evidence (from all parties) & make a judgement as to whether they believe the behaviour described amounts to it.
Did your friend intend through that behaviour to alarm, distress etc ?
Again the court listen to the circumstances (outlined by all parties) & make a judgement.
There is nothing strange about all this, it's an allegation being made & a court deciding whether there is sufficient evidence to back it up in order to convict (& before you say it, yes witness testimony is evidence).
King Fisher said:
my son's car is, by its nature, loud, and accelerates quickly compared to the average car
Whereas there are some cars which can, should the driver choose, accelerate faster than others, I'm not aware of any which are by nature loud, unless they have inadequate exhaust/silencer systems.Funny this should pop up today. On my way home tonight had to brake rather hard and rearranged the contents of my interior. Now i tootle around in my tourer with most of my work, papers, wallet, phone and other stuff on the passenger seat which ended up in the footwell - why ?
I live very near to stables, riding school and field where horses are kept. It is common to see horses in and around those areas but i had a surprise tonight when i came around a corner to be met with a pedestrian in bright clothing, no sweat i thought, then at the last minute i saw on the opposite side of the road a horse being walked by another person, neither the horse nor the walker wore anything remotely reflective and my lights were pointing elsewhere, i was surprised to see this going on in the dark and i think a little reckless more for the people in charge of the horse than anything else. In the end i had plenty of room to avoid a collision but it was not elegant. Roads around me have no pavement and are just wide enough for two cars to pass with a small manouver
As for cars being load naturally, has anyone heard a 458 on tickover, its outrageous but of course its legal and all. I have a rallycar which BTW i have to pull over and switch the engine off until horsey types pass by, its just something you have to do when you live where i do.
Still, i was not popular when i had some tyres changed recently, there was still a lot of poo on them from the last dollop i drove through.
I would hope that the guy gets some legal advice, i would not be wanting to face that on my tod
I live very near to stables, riding school and field where horses are kept. It is common to see horses in and around those areas but i had a surprise tonight when i came around a corner to be met with a pedestrian in bright clothing, no sweat i thought, then at the last minute i saw on the opposite side of the road a horse being walked by another person, neither the horse nor the walker wore anything remotely reflective and my lights were pointing elsewhere, i was surprised to see this going on in the dark and i think a little reckless more for the people in charge of the horse than anything else. In the end i had plenty of room to avoid a collision but it was not elegant. Roads around me have no pavement and are just wide enough for two cars to pass with a small manouver
As for cars being load naturally, has anyone heard a 458 on tickover, its outrageous but of course its legal and all. I have a rallycar which BTW i have to pull over and switch the engine off until horsey types pass by, its just something you have to do when you live where i do.
Still, i was not popular when i had some tyres changed recently, there was still a lot of poo on them from the last dollop i drove through.
I would hope that the guy gets some legal advice, i would not be wanting to face that on my tod
Pork_n_Beem said:
As for cars being load naturally, has anyone heard a 458 on tickover, its outrageous but of course its legal and all. I have a rallycar which BTW i have to pull over and switch the engine off until horsey types pass by, its just something you have to do when you live where i do.
We could argue about whether it was legal or not, even if we were by the car in question with a noise meter, but that wasn't really my point. My point was to do with the practicality of running a loud car, and, indeed the anti-social aspects of so doing.My son's car is a TVR S2 with a standard exhaust. It's a LOUD car by its nature. As I said, he was accelerating hard, but braked as soon as he saw the horse riders, then stopped when he was waved down. He then got a tirade of abuse, to which he told them that he pays road tax. When one of the horses came near his car, he moved away for his own safety. I fail to see how this is worth going to court for. Anyway, we do have a solicitor, who has said he will fight the case.
singlecoil said:
We could argue about whether it was legal or not, even if we were by the car in question with a noise meter, but that wasn't really my point. My point was to do with the practicality of running a loud car, and, indeed the anti-social aspects of so doing.
OK- i was just trying to explain that there are several cars that come from the factory which are loud, Ferrari, Lambo, Porsche GT3 immedaitely spring to mind. They are perfectly legal and pass the appropriate stuff so they can be driven on the road. Although i don't like noisey cars myself, rallycar is OK since i wear ear-protection anyway and does about 100 road miles a year. Some people enjoy the sound of their car and is indeed an attraction to the car.There are many examples of anti-social behaviour involving cars, i think the engine noise they make would be well down the list.
Even though my bike has a noisy, but road legal can, I don't like noisy pipes, they make you look a div. But I was once following a horse and rider, followed by a Honda SP1 on my tractor. I could feel the pulses on my windscreen, the horses ears were flapping quite a bit
I think it was that year. We were cutting wheat by one of the lanes. The combine driver had finished the field and drove across the lane to start the next. He lit a fag, poured a coffee and changed fields on the monitor then appeared to wait until two horses were right behind, before firing her up, completely covering them in a cloud of dust. Obviously I didn't laugh, not much anyway.
I think it was that year. We were cutting wheat by one of the lanes. The combine driver had finished the field and drove across the lane to start the next. He lit a fag, poured a coffee and changed fields on the monitor then appeared to wait until two horses were right behind, before firing her up, completely covering them in a cloud of dust. Obviously I didn't laugh, not much anyway.
King Fisher said:
My son's car is a TVR S2 with a standard exhaust. It's a LOUD car by its nature. As I said, he was accelerating hard, but braked as soon as he saw the horse riders, then stopped when he was waved down. He then got a tirade of abuse, to which he told them that he pays road tax. When one of the horses came near his car, he moved away for his own safety. I fail to see how this is worth going to court for. Anyway, we do have a solicitor, who has said he will fight the case.
Since the police haven't called the car in for a noise check, the anti social nature of the car's exhaust may not be the issue.I can see this from both perspectives, though I have less than zero interest in horses or farming.
On the one side;
I live in the country and have done for several years, near and next to various farms and stables.
My first and foremost belief is; If you don't like what country folk do, don't go into the country, and sure as Hell don't live next to farms or stables. They were there first, and if they weren't tough, that's what you should expect to find in the country.
When my neighbour starts his tractor at 5am on a Sunday morning in August, I praise him for his dedication, I don't whine about his tractor noise.
When shotguns are blasting various local animate or inanimate flying 'things' at 7am on Sunday, if you don't like it; I would suggest getting ear muffs or moving back to the town or city.
Certainly don't bother expressing your opinions on the matter to me, I wouldn't be listening. (No I don't shoot either).
On the other side;
I personally have been driving a 5 litre TVR Chimaera for about 13 years.
It arrived, from the factory VERY loud, not standard specification, but factory produced and legal. It has passed every MOT bar one first time, noise level and exhaust condition have never been noted or commented on.
I have had (rare) occasion to be stopped by the police, who have had the 'opportunity' of hearing the vehicle under power, and at idle. The noise level has never been questioned, though once complimented.
Additionally, I can assure those of you who perhaps haven't owned such a vehicle, the difference between leaving fairly gently at moderate acceleration, and leaving £10 worth or more of rubber like substance on the tarmac is about 1/16 of an inch in throttle depression and is very easily misjudged never mind greatly affected by the condition of the road surface and what is laying on the road. And in my case certainly, it is never quiet either way, and it is almost unavoidably quicker than what might be considered 'normal'.
I have seen both types of horse riders. The polite, responsible, and appreciative of you taking care type (the majority), and the obnoxious, pompous and apparently inconsiderate type, and I suppose a few in-between.
Interjection; We also get the complete morons who ignore the 30mph hour speed limit in front of our house, and drive at speeds near 60-70 mph. I'll take the 'other' type of horse rider in preference thank you.
I have also seen a horse bolt, (nothing to do with me I was 50m away and walking), and it is a terrifying sight.
Conclusions?
If I see horses on the road, or a horse box slowly trundling down the country lane, I often curse under my breath at the inconvenience and disruption to my driving. Because to me, at that point in time, it is the most important thing in the world to me.
I then and immediately call myself back to reality, take a deep breath and do what seems appropriate and safest for all concerned.
If that means stopping for the horses, then I do (though rarely has it seemed necessary).
If they 'flag' me, I slow further, and keep driving. I do NOT stop and enter into conversations/debates with people who's life styles/choices I can not possibly comprehend, and have no interest in. Furthermore, I have no interest in their opinion of the noise level of my vehicle; they have all the legal right to the opinion they hold, I have the legal right to completely ignore it. Thank goodness on both counts.
The point I make there is maybe; avoid confrontational situations at all (reasonable) costs.
The advice from experienced black cab drivers is something like; "Don't make eye contact, your fault or not. Keep driving as though nothing has happened. Only in the most extreme circumstances will an incident go any further."
As to the OP son's issue;
Perhaps he may be better advised, but I feel that bringing the very nature of the vehicle into the evidence could easily assist his case?
After all, if his TVR S3 is anywhere nearly as loud or as 'twitchy' as my Chimaera is to drive (and assuming fully legal etc.), and if expert testimony would confirm this as a fact, it may then be argued that the plaintiffs/witnesses have simply misjudged his driving actions through their own (not unreasonable) ignorance.
My limited experience of these things in court, and in taking into account statements of friends in the legal profession; a magistrate may easily take the less controversial route in making judgement, to assure that the matter does not reappear in the court (as an appeal for example).
As this (if I have read correctly) is purely a 'criminal' charge, not a private suit, surely any reasonable possibility that the drivers actions were innocent, and normal, without malice and virtually beyond his reasonable control, the case would be dismissed. There surely must be in the mind of the magistrate "no reasonable doubt", (as the logical reciprocal of the requirement to "prove beyond a reasonable doubt"), before finding a judgement of guilty?
On the one side;
I live in the country and have done for several years, near and next to various farms and stables.
My first and foremost belief is; If you don't like what country folk do, don't go into the country, and sure as Hell don't live next to farms or stables. They were there first, and if they weren't tough, that's what you should expect to find in the country.
When my neighbour starts his tractor at 5am on a Sunday morning in August, I praise him for his dedication, I don't whine about his tractor noise.
When shotguns are blasting various local animate or inanimate flying 'things' at 7am on Sunday, if you don't like it; I would suggest getting ear muffs or moving back to the town or city.
Certainly don't bother expressing your opinions on the matter to me, I wouldn't be listening. (No I don't shoot either).
On the other side;
I personally have been driving a 5 litre TVR Chimaera for about 13 years.
It arrived, from the factory VERY loud, not standard specification, but factory produced and legal. It has passed every MOT bar one first time, noise level and exhaust condition have never been noted or commented on.
I have had (rare) occasion to be stopped by the police, who have had the 'opportunity' of hearing the vehicle under power, and at idle. The noise level has never been questioned, though once complimented.
Additionally, I can assure those of you who perhaps haven't owned such a vehicle, the difference between leaving fairly gently at moderate acceleration, and leaving £10 worth or more of rubber like substance on the tarmac is about 1/16 of an inch in throttle depression and is very easily misjudged never mind greatly affected by the condition of the road surface and what is laying on the road. And in my case certainly, it is never quiet either way, and it is almost unavoidably quicker than what might be considered 'normal'.
I have seen both types of horse riders. The polite, responsible, and appreciative of you taking care type (the majority), and the obnoxious, pompous and apparently inconsiderate type, and I suppose a few in-between.
Interjection; We also get the complete morons who ignore the 30mph hour speed limit in front of our house, and drive at speeds near 60-70 mph. I'll take the 'other' type of horse rider in preference thank you.
I have also seen a horse bolt, (nothing to do with me I was 50m away and walking), and it is a terrifying sight.
Conclusions?
If I see horses on the road, or a horse box slowly trundling down the country lane, I often curse under my breath at the inconvenience and disruption to my driving. Because to me, at that point in time, it is the most important thing in the world to me.
I then and immediately call myself back to reality, take a deep breath and do what seems appropriate and safest for all concerned.
If that means stopping for the horses, then I do (though rarely has it seemed necessary).
If they 'flag' me, I slow further, and keep driving. I do NOT stop and enter into conversations/debates with people who's life styles/choices I can not possibly comprehend, and have no interest in. Furthermore, I have no interest in their opinion of the noise level of my vehicle; they have all the legal right to the opinion they hold, I have the legal right to completely ignore it. Thank goodness on both counts.
The point I make there is maybe; avoid confrontational situations at all (reasonable) costs.
The advice from experienced black cab drivers is something like; "Don't make eye contact, your fault or not. Keep driving as though nothing has happened. Only in the most extreme circumstances will an incident go any further."
As to the OP son's issue;
Perhaps he may be better advised, but I feel that bringing the very nature of the vehicle into the evidence could easily assist his case?
After all, if his TVR S3 is anywhere nearly as loud or as 'twitchy' as my Chimaera is to drive (and assuming fully legal etc.), and if expert testimony would confirm this as a fact, it may then be argued that the plaintiffs/witnesses have simply misjudged his driving actions through their own (not unreasonable) ignorance.
My limited experience of these things in court, and in taking into account statements of friends in the legal profession; a magistrate may easily take the less controversial route in making judgement, to assure that the matter does not reappear in the court (as an appeal for example).
As this (if I have read correctly) is purely a 'criminal' charge, not a private suit, surely any reasonable possibility that the drivers actions were innocent, and normal, without malice and virtually beyond his reasonable control, the case would be dismissed. There surely must be in the mind of the magistrate "no reasonable doubt", (as the logical reciprocal of the requirement to "prove beyond a reasonable doubt"), before finding a judgement of guilty?
streaky said:
But the Chairman of the Bench, who only just managed to park his Austin A35 Countryman within his reserved slot at the fifth attempt, might feel that a "twitchy" car indicated an inability to control it properly.
Streaky
I would hope;Streaky
1) the expert witness would use appropriately 'expert' terminology
2) the expert would be giving an opinion on the car, not the driver's skill.
3) perhaps the use of 'twitchy' was on my part ill advised. 'Loud pedal hyper-sensitive' perhaps?
There is of course, as you rightly suggest, a potential flip-side argument;
It is a high performance car, therefore the tendency of the driver is to drive in a high performance manner, disregarding 'normal' driving practices and behaviour.
Advice from the brief is essential, and he/she after all would be introducing the argument, and 'coaching' the expert prior to testimony.
king road tax, worse than a herd of bstreaky said:
But the Chairman of the Bench, who only just managed to park his Austin A35 Countryman within his reserved slot at the fifth attempt, might feel that a "twitchy" car indicated an inability to control it properly.
Streaky
My friend is currently a 'Chairman of the bench', and I well-remember the time when he employed a good Solicitor who specialised in motoring offences to (successfully) 'get him off' a due care and attention prosecution.Streaky
This came about as a result of said friend leaving the road at approx. 100mph and then proceeding across a ploughed field in his new Pontiac Transam.
Don't stereotype.
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