Aftermarket HID and the Police.
Discussion
Goaty Bill said:
jesta1865 said:
and also blue is associated with pron 
iirc when in the early stages of nude acts, they were fine as long as they never moved, they performed under blue light as it was harder to see them move.
I knew there was a reason for reading these forums. iirc when in the early stages of nude acts, they were fine as long as they never moved, they performed under blue light as it was harder to see them move.You learn something useful every day
Caulkhead said:
Stick with the link you gave if you want, but it's wrong.
In order to be up to date you have to take the basic MOT manual you posted a link to and then add any addtional change documents such as 'Technical Pen Picture 3 - lighting':
http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/repository/technicalpen...
From this you may note in section 1.7:
"To keep the test up to date with modern technology, new checks have been added in respect of High Intensity Discharge (HID) and Light Emitting Diode (LED) lamps."
"Dazzle can also be caused if the lamps are dirty or aimed too high due to, for example, carrying rear seat passengers and/or heavy items in the boot. Vehicles with HID headlamps are therefore required to have a headlamp washing system (a wiper is not required) and be self levelling, which may be achieved either by the use of either headlamp or suspension levelling systems.The presence and operation of these headlamp cleaning and levelling devices has been added to the test. Therefore, if a mandatory headlamp levelling or cleaning device is missing, inoperative or otherwise obviously defective, the vehicle will fail.
This raises the question of whether these checks apply to vehicles fitted with after-market HID lighting kits. These kits convert conventional halogen headlamps to HID Xenon and they are widely sold and fitted to vehicles used on the road. The Department for Transport considers that after-market systems should be required to meet the same safety standards as that applied in respect of these lamps at vehicle Type Approval. Therefore, in order to pass the MOT test, vehicles fitted with after-market HID systems would also need to be fitted with headlamp cleaning and self-levelling systems. Some high specification estate cars are fitted with a self-levelling suspension system and this would be considered as adequate for the purpose."
Don't expect to pass an MOT after December with aftermarket HID's.
I'm no MOT expert but you may note the technical pen document you linked was published in march 2011, the MOT proposals have an issue date of JAN 2012 so one would expect them to be the overriding document. MOT testers who have posted on this subject support the view of levelers and washers may be fitted and is so have to work, not that aftermarket HIDS are a instant failure.In order to be up to date you have to take the basic MOT manual you posted a link to and then add any addtional change documents such as 'Technical Pen Picture 3 - lighting':
http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/repository/technicalpen...
From this you may note in section 1.7:
"To keep the test up to date with modern technology, new checks have been added in respect of High Intensity Discharge (HID) and Light Emitting Diode (LED) lamps."
"Dazzle can also be caused if the lamps are dirty or aimed too high due to, for example, carrying rear seat passengers and/or heavy items in the boot. Vehicles with HID headlamps are therefore required to have a headlamp washing system (a wiper is not required) and be self levelling, which may be achieved either by the use of either headlamp or suspension levelling systems.The presence and operation of these headlamp cleaning and levelling devices has been added to the test. Therefore, if a mandatory headlamp levelling or cleaning device is missing, inoperative or otherwise obviously defective, the vehicle will fail.
This raises the question of whether these checks apply to vehicles fitted with after-market HID lighting kits. These kits convert conventional halogen headlamps to HID Xenon and they are widely sold and fitted to vehicles used on the road. The Department for Transport considers that after-market systems should be required to meet the same safety standards as that applied in respect of these lamps at vehicle Type Approval. Therefore, in order to pass the MOT test, vehicles fitted with after-market HID systems would also need to be fitted with headlamp cleaning and self-levelling systems. Some high specification estate cars are fitted with a self-levelling suspension system and this would be considered as adequate for the purpose."
Don't expect to pass an MOT after December with aftermarket HID's.
Add to that the paragraph you posted says you need washers and leveling but the next paragraph then goes on to say that some cars don't need leveling, plenty of grey area and contradiction in there.
the bit you didn't post said:
It is also worthy of note that a few high performance vehicles fitted with HID headlamps that
have barely any luggage space and stiff suspension do not require a self-levelling system.
have barely any luggage space and stiff suspension do not require a self-levelling system.
Edited by ViperDave on Tuesday 22 November 16:05
ViperDave said:
Caulkhead said:
Stick with the link you gave if you want, but it's wrong.
In order to be up to date you have to take the basic MOT manual you posted a link to and then add any addtional change documents such as 'Technical Pen Picture 3 - lighting':
http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/repository/technicalpen...
From this you may note in section 1.7:
"To keep the test up to date with modern technology, new checks have been added in respect of High Intensity Discharge (HID) and Light Emitting Diode (LED) lamps."
"Dazzle can also be caused if the lamps are dirty or aimed too high due to, for example, carrying rear seat passengers and/or heavy items in the boot. Vehicles with HID headlamps are therefore required to have a headlamp washing system (a wiper is not required) and be self levelling, which may be achieved either by the use of either headlamp or suspension levelling systems.The presence and operation of these headlamp cleaning and levelling devices has been added to the test. Therefore, if a mandatory headlamp levelling or cleaning device is missing, inoperative or otherwise obviously defective, the vehicle will fail.
This raises the question of whether these checks apply to vehicles fitted with after-market HID lighting kits. These kits convert conventional halogen headlamps to HID Xenon and they are widely sold and fitted to vehicles used on the road. The Department for Transport considers that after-market systems should be required to meet the same safety standards as that applied in respect of these lamps at vehicle Type Approval. Therefore, in order to pass the MOT test, vehicles fitted with after-market HID systems would also need to be fitted with headlamp cleaning and self-levelling systems. Some high specification estate cars are fitted with a self-levelling suspension system and this would be considered as adequate for the purpose."
Don't expect to pass an MOT after December with aftermarket HID's.
I'm no MOT expert but you may note the technical pen document you linked was published in march 2011, the MOT proposals have an issue date of JAN 2012 so one would expect them to be the overriding document. MOT testers who have posted on this subject support the view of levelers and washers may be fitted and is so have to work, not that aftermarket HIDS are a instant failureIn order to be up to date you have to take the basic MOT manual you posted a link to and then add any addtional change documents such as 'Technical Pen Picture 3 - lighting':
http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/repository/technicalpen...
From this you may note in section 1.7:
"To keep the test up to date with modern technology, new checks have been added in respect of High Intensity Discharge (HID) and Light Emitting Diode (LED) lamps."
"Dazzle can also be caused if the lamps are dirty or aimed too high due to, for example, carrying rear seat passengers and/or heavy items in the boot. Vehicles with HID headlamps are therefore required to have a headlamp washing system (a wiper is not required) and be self levelling, which may be achieved either by the use of either headlamp or suspension levelling systems.The presence and operation of these headlamp cleaning and levelling devices has been added to the test. Therefore, if a mandatory headlamp levelling or cleaning device is missing, inoperative or otherwise obviously defective, the vehicle will fail.
This raises the question of whether these checks apply to vehicles fitted with after-market HID lighting kits. These kits convert conventional halogen headlamps to HID Xenon and they are widely sold and fitted to vehicles used on the road. The Department for Transport considers that after-market systems should be required to meet the same safety standards as that applied in respect of these lamps at vehicle Type Approval. Therefore, in order to pass the MOT test, vehicles fitted with after-market HID systems would also need to be fitted with headlamp cleaning and self-levelling systems. Some high specification estate cars are fitted with a self-levelling suspension system and this would be considered as adequate for the purpose."
Don't expect to pass an MOT after December with aftermarket HID's.
"This Technical Pen Picture gives an overview of the MOT test
changes in respect of lighting and signalling checks brought
about by an amendment to Annex II to Directive 2009/40/EC
and introduced by Commission Directive 2010/48/EU.
These changes will take effect from 1 January 2012."
Caulkhead said:
Don't expect to pass an MOT after December with aftermarket HID's.
If they do they have just made maybe as much as several hundred car at least suddenly fail the MOT next year. Considering the seatbelt is the most important saftey feature fitted to cars in recent times, the sheer fact you can happily drive round in a car without seat belts just becuase they werent fitted when new makes that ruling pethetic and my sympathies go out to those who are now looking at massive bills for no fault of their own. IF it happens of course, which I will wait and see. According to most my car wont pass MOT's becuase of the HIDs. Yet it does, and at more than one garage too. I'll wait I think for the fat lady to start singing, at worst I'll go and fit the old bulbs back in, no biggy.
of course the last section does put back an element of doubt "Where headlamp levelling or cleaning devices are missing or defective, but there is doubt as to
whether they are required, the benefit of the doubt should be given and an advisory notice issued."
So if they arent sure they will just give it an advisory. Remember they cant remove bits of trim, and if your ballasts are hidden how are they to know for sure?
Edited by spats on Tuesday 22 November 16:10
Caulkhead said:
I'm no MOT expert either, but I can read:
"This Technical Pen Picture gives an overview of the MOT test
changes in respect of lighting and signalling checks brought
about by an amendment to Annex II to Directive 2009/40/EC
and introduced by Commission Directive 2010/48/EU.
These changes will take effect from 1 January 2012."
But i would never take an overview document as gospel over the actual specification which the latter published manual is."This Technical Pen Picture gives an overview of the MOT test
changes in respect of lighting and signalling checks brought
about by an amendment to Annex II to Directive 2009/40/EC
and introduced by Commission Directive 2010/48/EU.
These changes will take effect from 1 January 2012."
ps also see my edit above
littleredrooster said:
I'd be interested to know what the exact charge was on the sheet. AFAIK, there's no proven case law which stops HID conversions; the section lifted from the DfT's website is their opinion, not fact.
Some well-intentioned made up law perhaps? It wasnt too long ago that some traffic officers bought their own decibel meter and started nicking people for noisy exhausts. Equally as spurious legally.
GC8 said:
littleredrooster said:
I'd be interested to know what the exact charge was on the sheet. AFAIK, there's no proven case law which stops HID conversions; the section lifted from the DfT's website is their opinion, not fact.
Some well-intentioned made up law perhaps? It wasnt too long ago that some traffic officers bought their own decibel meter and started nicking people for noisy exhausts. Equally as spurious legally.Thank god for this!!! about time police started to act on idiots who blind other drivers.
If you fit them correctly and the car is designed to have them, I guess this want matter to you but for the pillocks out there that fit them on a budget out the back of their parents garage and think the brighter the better think again as you are just another form of chav! (agreed not all people fall into this category but again, the majority ruin it for you sensible ones)
There is a crowd of them near me and they all look sh*t and blind the hell out of people!
Rant over
If you fit them correctly and the car is designed to have them, I guess this want matter to you but for the pillocks out there that fit them on a budget out the back of their parents garage and think the brighter the better think again as you are just another form of chav! (agreed not all people fall into this category but again, the majority ruin it for you sensible ones)
There is a crowd of them near me and they all look sh*t and blind the hell out of people!
Rant over
Eth2312 said:
Thank god for this!!! about time police started to act on idiots who blind other drivers.
Hopefully next they can set to task against those who insist on blinding everyone with their high-intensity brake lights.Given that's probably about half the drivers in this country that should free up the roads a bit for the rest
ViperDave said:
the next paragraph then goes on to say that some cars don't need leveling, plenty of grey area and contradiction in there.
I saw that tooMOTdoc said:
It is also worthy of note that a few high performance vehicles fitted with HID headlamps that have barely any luggage space and stiff suspension do not require a self-levelling system.
Do they have to be that high performace or something like an MX5/Elise. Would they still need washer systems?Anyone found the legislation so we can find out what it really says?
paul450 said:
thought they where not illegal till jan2012 ?thats when the mot changes for them.
zx10ben said:
A lot of TVRs going to be failing next year then because I've yet to see one with self levelling lights or washer jets! 
Have they got xenons? Didn't realise that.A lot of performance cars are exempt from needing levellers as the suspension is so stiff, and the car is only a two seater, it doesn't need them.
Very interesting thread! I was thinking about the HID conversion because the main beam on my car is very poor and I was wanting to improve visibility. I was unaware of the law on using the HID conversion's and how much it pissed people off!! I think I will look into upgrading the bulbs instead 
amccan10 said:
Offence code 319008 unauthorised lamps fitted
Thats very general, includes underbody lighting and strobes or blue lights etc. I think the policeman is applying a very loose letter of the law here.I cant believe people are posting transport regs from 1988... I have looked at this and the law is very grey, won't be long until it is challenged in court then we can get a ruling.
I dont use them myself but on my old Celica the lights were like candles and the HID's were really good. Was either that or £450 from Toyota for projectors.
I thought the new bulbs were all shielded anyway to stop glare.
OP, are you from the Glasgow area by any chance?
SPotted this post on an Astra Owners site, 2 people in that thread pulled, fined £30 and given a pink slip on same night within the Glasgow area.
http://forums.astra-sri.co.uk/showthread.php?s=40b...
SPotted this post on an Astra Owners site, 2 people in that thread pulled, fined £30 and given a pink slip on same night within the Glasgow area.
http://forums.astra-sri.co.uk/showthread.php?s=40b...
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