Trailer towing:- B and B+E licence rules explained

[R0G]

Syd knee said:

I was told that "grandfather writes" had been remooved. Which internet person do I trust.

The info is on the Gov sites and does NOT mention B+E - it only mentions pre 97 PCV D1 & D1+E & LGV C1 & C1+E categories
If they wanted it to include B+E then they would have stated such

If something is not allowed by law it will say so

[rewc]

R0G said:

The info is on the Gov sites and does NOT mention B+E - it only mentions pre 97 PCV D1 & D1+E & LGV C1 & C1+E categories
If they wanted it to include B+E then they would have stated such

If something is not allowed by law it will say so

The Government say "
Car licences held before 1 January 1997
All drivers who passed a car test before 1 January 1997 retain their existing entitlement to tow trailers until their licence expires. This means they are generally entitled to drive a vehicle and trailer combination up to 8.25 tonnes MAM. They also have entitlement to drive a minibus with a trailer over 750kgs MAM".
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensi...

[R0G]

rewc said:

The Government say "
Car licences held before 1 January 1997
All drivers who passed a car test before 1 January 1997 retain their existing entitlement to tow trailers until their licence expires. This means they are generally entitled to drive a vehicle and trailer combination up to 8.25 tonnes MAM. They also have entitlement to drive a minibus with a trailer over 750kgs MAM".
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensi...

That is for driving entitlement - what is being discussed is B+E supervision

[Wh00sher]

A question.

My understanding is that the Trailer PLATED MAM, even when empty can not exceed the towing capacity of the tow vehicle.

ie,
Trailer plated 1800kg MAM CAN be towed by a car with a towing capacity of 2000KG (assuming it isn`t loaded above the MAM of course)
Trailer plated 2500kg MAM, with no load and weighing only 500kg can NOT be towed with the car having a towing capacity of 2000KG

Is this correct or not ?

Edited by Wh00sher on Thursday 19th January 06:49

[rewc]

Wh00sher said:

A question.

My understanding is that the Trailer PLATED MAM, even when empty can not exceed the towing capacity of the tow vehicle.

ie,
Trailer plated 1800kg MAM CAN be towed by a car with a towing capacity of 2000KG (assuming it isn`t loaded above the MAM of course)
Trailer plated 2500kg MAM, with no load and weighing only 500kg can NOT be towed with the car having a towing capacity of 2000KG

Is this correct or not ?

Edited by Wh00sher on Thursday 19th January 06:49

I stand to be corrected but exceeding the towing capacity of the tow vehicle is a C & U technical offence, you either have or havn't. It is the actual weight of the trailer that matters, if it is within the maximum towing limit and maximum train weight of the towing vehicle then it is legal.
There may be different implications as far as driving licences are concerned with the MAM of trailers.

[R0G]

Wh00sher said:

A question.

My understanding is that the Trailer PLATED MAM, even when empty can not exceed the towing capacity of the tow vehicle.

ie,
Trailer plated 1800kg MAM CAN be towed by a car with a towing capacity of 2000KG (assuming it isn`t loaded above the MAM of course)
Trailer plated 2500kg MAM, with no load and weighing only 500kg can NOT be towed with the car having a towing capacity of 2000KG

Is this correct or not ?

NOT

That is one of the biggest myths around towing

Towing capacity = actual weight being towed

A driver with a B+E licence can legally do this -

Towing vehicle
Unladen = 1500
GVW = 2000
Towing capacity = 1800

Trailer
Unladen 900
MAM = 3500

Providing the trailer is not loaded with more than 900 then it is legal (900 + 900 = 1800)

On commercial vehicles the rules are the same only they use GTW instead of a towing capacity

Lorry
Unladen = 10 tonnes
GVW = 26 tonnes
GTW = 40 tonnes

Trailer/drag
Unladen = 8 tonnes
MAM = 20 tonnes

Load lorry to 20 tonnes and trailer to 20 tonnes = LEGAL

[Wh00sher]

R0G said:

NOT

That is one of the biggest myths around towing

You live and learn. Thats why I asked the question, its something I`ve been told many times and have told other people. I stand corrected.

[R0G]

Car and horsebox trailer that is legal to tow on a B licence

passat 2lt tdi sport
unladen = 1648kg
GVW = 2000kg
Max vehicle towing capacity = 1800kg

Cheval 1003 xxl pullman trailer
MAM of trailer = 1600kg
Empty trailer = 732kg

Get manufacturer to downplate trailer to 1500 kgs MAM and that will be legal for B licence towing

Reasons it is legal for B licence towing:-
The GVW of 2000 plus the MAM of 1500 is not more than 3500
The MAM of 1500 is not more than the unladen weight of 1648

[R0G]

Wh00sher said:

R0G said:

NOT

That is one of the biggest myths around towing

You live and learn. Thats why I asked the question, its something I`ve been told many times and have told other people. I stand corrected.

That is the idea of a site and a threadd like this - to dispell the myths and present the facts

[lawrencec]

please could i ask a question might help a few others out in relation to large vans and towing

ok if i hold a B+E licence

i have a sprinter lwb and i want to pull my brian james trailer
the sprinter is 3500kg gvw and has a towing capacity of 3500kg also,

so my trailer weighs 500kg for example and i put a load that weighs 2000kg that takes the total of van and trailer to 7000kgs

could that be driven on a B+E licence ? of would this combo require a higher 7.5t licence?

this bit always confuses me

thanks

[mph1977]

lawrencec said:

please could i ask a question might help a few others out in relation to large vans and towing

ok if i hold a B+E licence

i have a sprinter lwb and i want to pull my brian james trailer
the sprinter is 3500kg gvw and has a towing capacity of 3500kg also,

so my trailer weighs 500kg for example and i put a load that weighs 2000kg that takes the total of van and trailer to 7000kgs

could that be driven on a B+E licence ? of would this combo require a higher 7.5t licence?

this bit always confuses me

thanks

what type of sprinter is it ?

does it have the reinforced trailer coupling option ?

because according to the merc website it depends on engine and trailer coupling type

licence wise if the towing vehicle IS a cat B sprinter then it's B+E - it's in law the same as range rover etc with a 3500kg towing capacity

[With these feet]

mph1977 said:

what type of sprinter is it ?

does it have the reinforced trailer coupling option ?

because according to the merc website it depends on engine and trailer coupling type

licence wise if the towing vehicle IS a cat B sprinter then it's B+E - it's in law the same as range rover etc with a 3500kg towing capacity

I sold a Crafter recently (2008 MWB hi roof), which we used to tow an RS5 with. It was one of only a handful of vans that could tow that trailer, but it certainly was not listed as 3.5t - pretty sure it was 2800 max, it would mean the GTW would be 7T. I seem to remember the plate saying the GTW was 5500. Stopped by VOSA a couple of times a weighed once with a V8V in the back and was within the limits. Problem was with a heavy car, the van was nearly empty! It was one of the reasons we didnt go for a sprinter as the salesman at Mercedes said they could not retro fit a towbar on a used van and it have the correct towing capacity! Most vans have a max of 1800-2000 kgs.

[lawrencec]

my example above was just a in theory one to the maximum of 3.5tonne licence

il put my example down i have a sprinter recovery truck and i want to use it for car delivery its 3.5t its plated maximum combine is 5500 like the the crafter above so that would leave me 2000kg to have on a trailer the brian james i have used is plated 2000kg

this combo would be pefectly legalon a b+e licence?

[R0G]

OOPS - deleted

Edited by R0G on Wednesday 25th January 09:34

[R0G]

lawrencec said:

my example above was just a in theory one to the maximum of 3.5tonne licence

il put my example down i have a sprinter recovery truck and i want to use it for car delivery its 3.5t its plated maximum combine is 5500 like the the crafter above so that would leave me 2000kg to have on a trailer the brian james i have used is plated 2000kg

this combo would be pefectly legalon a b+e licence?

Vehicle
Unladen = dunno
GVW = 3500
GTW = 5500
Towing capacity 3500

Trailer
Unladen = 500
MAM = 2000
MAX load for trailer = 1500

You cannot load 2000 onto the trailer because that would exceed the 2000 MAM - it would be 2500 and illegal
MAM means the max weight the trailer and its load can weigh

The total ACTUAL weight that the vehicle and trailer can weigh is max 5500 because that is the GTW

You could have a much bigger MAM trailer - up to 3500 if you wanted to because the GTW does not mean that the totals of the vehicle GVW and the trailer MAM cannot exceed 5500

With a vehicle plated at 3500 GVW and a trailer plated at 3500 MAM you can distribute the load how you want to as long as these weights are not exceeded
vehicle GVW
trailer MAM
GTW
towing capacity

[R0G]

LICENCES

The vehicle GVW determines what type of licence is required - 3500 or less = B licence

The total weight or permitted weight of the combination does not determine the licence

A +E on the licence is required depending on what is being towed and the towing rules for that licence

B licence towing rules are different from C and D towing rules

[lawrencec]

R0G said:

Vehicle
Unladen = dunno
GVW = 3500
GTW = 5500
Towing capacity 3500

Trailer
Unladen = 500
MAM = 2000
MAX load for trailer = 1500

You cannot load 2000 onto the trailer because that would exceed the 2000 MAM - it would be 2500 and illegal
MAM means the max weight the trailer and its load can weigh

The total ACTUAL weight that the vehicle and trailer can weigh is max 5500 because that is the GTW

You could have a much bigger MAM trailer - up to 3500 if you wanted to because the GTW does not mean that the totals of the vehicle GVW and the trailer MAM cannot exceed 5500

With a vehicle plated at 3500 GVW and a trailer plated at 3500 MAM you can distribute the load how you want to as long as these weights are not exceeded
vehicle GVW
trailer MAM
GTW
towing capacity

Sorry was in a rush tapping it out im aware that if the Trailer 2000KG MAM and it weighed 500KG then 1500 would be the payload

this clears alot of gray areas up that the lovely govenment dont explain properly

my beliving for having the trailer test was so you could use a smaller weight plated vehicle to pull a heavier load up to a combined 3500kg

e.g weights are made up

Ford Mondeo 1400kg kerb weight pulling its example towing limit of 1700kg because it is 300kg kg heavier than the towing car

Now i Know how it works then this makes the B+E test a worthwhile thing to do!

Thats my next thing todo for 2012 obtain B+E so i can pull more than just my cappucino + trailer

Many Thanks Guys

[R0G]

Lets take an example of a beavertail pickup 3500 GVW and a 3500 MAM trailer with these made up specs

Vehicle - beavertail type for a vehicle to be carried on
Unladen = 1900
GVW = 3500
GTW = 6000
Towing capacity 3500
MAX load for vehicle = 1600

Trailer for a vehicle to be carried on
Unladen = 1000
MAM = 3500
MAX load for trailer = 2500

Now there are two vehicles which need to be loaded
One weighs 1700
Other weighs 1400

1400 gets put on vehicle so that now weighs 3300
1700 gets put on trailer so that now weighs 2700
Total weight is now 6000

Cannot put 1700 on vehicle because that would be 3600 which is over the 3500 limit

[saaby93]

Good thread ROG. Only thing missing from the first paragraph for unitiated (yet) was I had to look up MAM
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensi...
If I have it right it' Maximum Authorised Mass'. Is it specified by the trailer manufacturer and is why you can ask them to respecify a trailer downwards in order to meet the legal requirements for the vehicle, your licence etc?
Seems crazy to me but there you go

Edited by saaby93 on Wednesday 25th January 10:20

[lawrencec]

R0G said:

Lets take an example of a beavertail pickup 3500 GVW and a 3500 MAM trailer with these made up specs

Vehicle - beavertail type for a vehicle to be carried on
Unladen = 1900
GVW = 3500
GTW = 6000
Towing capacity 3500
MAX load for vehicle = 1600

Trailer for a vehicle to be carried on
Unladen = 1000
MAM = 3500
MAX load for trailer = 2500

Now there are two vehicles which need to be loaded
One weighs 1700
Other weighs 1400

1400 gets put on vehicle so that now weighs 3300
1700 gets put on trailer so that now weighs 2700
Total weight is now 6000

Cannot put 1700 on vehicle because that would be 3600 which is over the 3500 limit

Thank you for Clearing that up for me clear as day now this has actually made me happeier knowing that i could carry a good laod with out the need to go for a HGV licence