How legal is this sign?
Discussion
Gaspode said:
The Protection of Livestock Act 1971 gives farmers the right to shoot dogs who are loose in the same field as their livestock. We had a woman walking her dog off the lead amongst our sheep some years ago (a public footpath crosses the field). Needless to say, the bloody thing started chasing our sheep all over the place, and a few of them had nasty injuries. A neighbour saw it and called the cops before they called us.
The police turned up very promptly - in fact so promptly he must have been passing. The woman had managed to get her dog under control by then, protesting 'He's never done it before' I was shouting at her, giving her a right blocking, and Mrs Gaspode was trying to get the injured ewes into the shed so she could treat them.
The cop just walked up to the woman, took the dog from her, brought it over to me and said "Do you want to shoot it now, or shall we let the vet do it?" No messing, no listening to the woman's side of the story, nothing.
I said I was happy for the vet to do it painlessly, no point in the dog suffering, and it was duly put down within the hour.
So no, maybe the council couldn't do anything legally like fining you, but if your dog came within eyeshot of a farmer with gun, you'd probably have one less pet to feed...
If true, I would be very careful doing something like that. Harming someone's dog can provoke irrational responses.......I have a mate, treats his dog better than you would treat a kid. I hate to think what would happen if anyone sanctioned the death of his dog. Its rhe sort of sThe police turned up very promptly - in fact so promptly he must have been passing. The woman had managed to get her dog under control by then, protesting 'He's never done it before' I was shouting at her, giving her a right blocking, and Mrs Gaspode was trying to get the injured ewes into the shed so she could treat them.
The cop just walked up to the woman, took the dog from her, brought it over to me and said "Do you want to shoot it now, or shall we let the vet do it?" No messing, no listening to the woman's side of the story, nothing.
I said I was happy for the vet to do it painlessly, no point in the dog suffering, and it was duly put down within the hour.
So no, maybe the council couldn't do anything legally like fining you, but if your dog came within eyeshot of a farmer with gun, you'd probably have one less pet to feed...
t that could haunt you for years. The fact is sheep worrying is a genuine problem. Owners need to be prossecuted and made to pay if at fault.. What if the dog was loose by accident. Accidents happen. two sides to every story. I am being devils advocate here but you could argue that if you have a right of way through a field then you should consider risk to your assets. Put the sheep elsewhere,or fence them in. Farming is a business, and livestock are there to make you money. You are going to kill the damn things in the end. If a dog escaoed and got into a paper store, tearing up a firm's stock, it would not be shot. What does a Ewe cost these days? A whole lot less than a pedigree dog. You'd be better off chasing the dog owner for the cash, flogging the sheep for what you can get to the slaughterman and you are quids in.
Cop or no cop there. You kill a woman's beloved dog, and you sail into very dangerous and potentially ruinous waters. Ask for the price of a new sheep, and you are more likely to get your loss covered.
Gaspode said:
The Protection of Livestock Act 1971 gives farmers the right to shoot dogs who are loose in the same field as their livestock. We had a woman walking her dog off the lead amongst our sheep some years ago (a public footpath crosses the field). Needless to say, the bloody thing started chasing our sheep all over the place, and a few of them had nasty injuries. A neighbour saw it and called the cops before they called us.
The police turned up very promptly - in fact so promptly he must have been passing. The woman had managed to get her dog under control by then, protesting 'He's never done it before' I was shouting at her, giving her a right blocking, and Mrs Gaspode was trying to get the injured ewes into the shed so she could treat them.
The cop just walked up to the woman, took the dog from her, brought it over to me and said "Do you want to shoot it now, or shall we let the vet do it?" No messing, no listening to the woman's side of the story, nothing.
I said I was happy for the vet to do it painlessly, no point in the dog suffering, and it was duly put down within the hour.
So no, maybe the council couldn't do anything legally like fining you, but if your dog came within eyeshot of a farmer with gun, you'd probably have one less pet to feed...
Was it a shaggy dog?The police turned up very promptly - in fact so promptly he must have been passing. The woman had managed to get her dog under control by then, protesting 'He's never done it before' I was shouting at her, giving her a right blocking, and Mrs Gaspode was trying to get the injured ewes into the shed so she could treat them.
The cop just walked up to the woman, took the dog from her, brought it over to me and said "Do you want to shoot it now, or shall we let the vet do it?" No messing, no listening to the woman's side of the story, nothing.
I said I was happy for the vet to do it painlessly, no point in the dog suffering, and it was duly put down within the hour.
So no, maybe the council couldn't do anything legally like fining you, but if your dog came within eyeshot of a farmer with gun, you'd probably have one less pet to feed...
veryRS said:
Gaspode said:
I agree, the officer almost certainly did not have the right to do that. The relevant act only permits farmers to shoot dogs in order to protect their livestock. Had I shot the dog under the circumstances, I suspect the owners might well have had some sort of case against me. As it was, they took it straight to the vets and had it humanely destroyed, and the matter ended there. We did not prosecute the owner as we felt the destruction of their dog was punishment enough. One of the ewes that had been savaged had to be destroyed, and two survived.
Revenge isnt allowed in UK law.Frankly old chap if it was me and my dog(s) and either you or the plod attempted to abitrarily take them off me when they were under control you'd have had 2 very angry dogs and 1 even angrier owner using self defence laws to contend with.
As for the OP, it looks more like a request to me. And one which any decent dog owner would abide with I should think.
Keep your dog on a lead and pick up it's s
t. Do you want me to post the dead sheep pictures?
No one is disputing what a dog can do to a sheep (I've seen it). What is disputed is:
1/ Police acting as judge, jury and executioner on a dog, which at that time, was under control.
2/ A dog owner simply allowing their dog to be destroyed without any argument or complaint.
We, of course, don't know where this happened. Was it in Cloud Cuckooland?
1/ Police acting as judge, jury and executioner on a dog, which at that time, was under control.
2/ A dog owner simply allowing their dog to be destroyed without any argument or complaint.
We, of course, don't know where this happened. Was it in Cloud Cuckooland?
richyb said:
My past experience of managing public open spaces has shown me that no dog area's are not legally enforceable. Most byelaws relating to dogs specify a dog is kept under control at all times. This does not mean it is necessarily leashed.
Does that mean all no dog areas? Or just the ones that you've come across?It strikes me as very straighforward for any authority to ban dogs from an area under their control, and, should they choose to do so, it would of course be legally enforceable.
richyb said:
My past experience of managing public open spaces has shown me that no dog area's are not legally enforceable. Most byelaws relating to dogs specify a dog is kept under control at all times. This does not mean it is necessarily leashed.
The Road Traffic Act 1988 said:
Section 27:
"A person who causes or permits a dog to be on a designated road without the dog being held on a lead is guilty of an offence....
"designated road" means a length of road specified by an order on behalf of the local authority in whose area the length of road is situated."A person who causes or permits a dog to be on a designated road without the dog being held on a lead is guilty of an offence....
arcticgoldfish said:
Hmm if he didn't kill it then he may be open to prosecution for unnecessary suffering as well. And no doubt he's got dead sheep there with the throats ripped out to prove it........In the interests of fairness I should point out that not all farmers are a**holes, a friend's dog escaped on her many moons ago and the farmer saw it daily amongst his sheep (and said he had it in his sights a few times as well) but she never worried the sheep at all (a livestock guardian dog so doing her job actually!) and so he left it alone. Did say that after a few weeks he didn't even bother looking to see if the sheep were worried by the dog.
For the farmer mentioned above all it would have taken is for him to see it go for or even look like it was going for one of his sheep, or to have been in a rush had a dog problem previously and think awesome seen the bloody thing, this'll stop it. Result one dead dog and a reasonable defense.
JumboBeef said:
No one is disputing what a dog can do to a sheep (I've seen it). What is disputed is:
1/ Police acting as judge, jury and executioner on a dog, which at that time, was under control.
2/ A dog owner simply allowing their dog to be destroyed without any argument or complaint.
We, of course, don't know where this happened. Was it in Cloud Cuckooland?
Admittedly my experience was in the US, but what my then employers did was call the dog warden and she came out quick sharp. The dogs were contained in a shed*. The owners were called and it was put to them then that the dogs should be destroyed. Dog owner not happy, understandably, but the dog warden (who was very understanding) suggested to the owners that before they decide to keep the dogs perhaps they might like to see what they had done. Dogs were destroyed that afternoon.1/ Police acting as judge, jury and executioner on a dog, which at that time, was under control.
2/ A dog owner simply allowing their dog to be destroyed without any argument or complaint.
We, of course, don't know where this happened. Was it in Cloud Cuckooland?
- the dogs were lovely, just dogs, someones pets. They didn't know what they had done, they were just doing what dogs do.
People need to realise that they must control their dogs. The UK is too crowded to have people doing what ever they want. By all means come into the countryside and use the public foot paths, but keep your dogs under control at all times and clean up after them.
Engineer1 said:
For the farmer mentioned above all it would have taken is for him to see it go for or even look like it was going for one of his sheep, or to have been in a rush had a dog problem previously and think awesome seen the bloody thing, this'll stop it. Result one dead dog and a reasonable defense.
And if the dead dog belonged to my mate Sean (not his real name) oulined above, a lifetime of woe for the farmer......As I said, if you do that to a doting owner, one who isn't the forgiving type, you'd better be making plans to sell up. Dog owners can be irrational. To some its is like having a kid.
Back when we were kids (12) Sean's dog got run over by a neighbour who didn't stop. Neighbour did the "You can't prove it sonny, f
k off" thing. Probably the worst decision he ever made. That was 1982. I know as late as the late 1990s said neighbour was still having trouble. Sean had llong moved away, but wierd and often bad stuff happened. Cars damaged, wife scared stless by an intruder who stole nothing, but who just appeared in the house one night, saying nothing, just staring. Kids threatened, and I recall one given a slapping.All very silly. Sean of course could not be linked to it, and the hassle was not constant. Every few years, and then something bad would happen. I only assume he is behind it.
Farmer Giles cops his dog an unfortunate one and a chewed sheep woud be the least of his traumas.
The law requires proof. 15 years down the line and the farmer has a trashed tractor. "Oh I shot a bloke's dog a decade and a half ago, he will have done this.".
Don't try solving stuff with guns. It aint going to work out well. Take the f
ker to court, bill them, get the dog destroyed after due legal process, I say friend, guy I went to school with who joined the army, left the area and comes back now and then. We don't play golf together, but I have the odd beer with him when he comes back.
I was using it as a example of how dogs make people behave in eays that are irrational. Killing as revenge be it animal or human, opens up huge cans of worms. Some people afford dogs the same status as humans. Right or wrong, Had that driver stopped (and fulfilled his legal obligation to report it) then he'd probably had a largely hassle free life.
Ultimately sheep don't deserve to be savaged. Owners should contol their dogs. But a farmer in taking revenge is taking revenge for what is ultimately damage to stock. If a dog damaged stock in a shop would it be shot? As I say, hit owners in the wallet. Put the guns down!
I was using it as a example of how dogs make people behave in eays that are irrational. Killing as revenge be it animal or human, opens up huge cans of worms. Some people afford dogs the same status as humans. Right or wrong, Had that driver stopped (and fulfilled his legal obligation to report it) then he'd probably had a largely hassle free life.
Ultimately sheep don't deserve to be savaged. Owners should contol their dogs. But a farmer in taking revenge is taking revenge for what is ultimately damage to stock. If a dog damaged stock in a shop would it be shot? As I say, hit owners in the wallet. Put the guns down!
oldsoak said:
"designated road" means a length of road specified by an order on behalf of the local authority in whose area the length of road is situated.
We are talking about a public open space and not a road though. The RTA isn't enforceable here. Byelaws vary from place to place but my experience has been these cannot be enforced as is and dogs or owners are dealt with under public order legislation (if the situation requires it).
Edited by richyb on Sunday 6th May 13:42
richyb said:
Byelaws vary from place to place but my experience has been these cannot be enforced as is and dogs or owners are dealt with under public order legislation (if the situation requires it).
Seems very unlikely to me. A bye-law that cannot be enforced isn't much of a bye-law, is it? I reckon that the situation is that if an authority wishes to make a bye-law banning dogs from an area then it's perfectly possible for them to do that, your experience notwithstanding. "Local byelaws may impose restrictions over land owned or managed by bodies with byelaw-making powers, such as local authorities, National Trust and MoD. Byelaws are usually posted on signs at key entry points. Byelaws can be made to regulate behaviour associated with dogs in four ways:
keeping dogs on lead
keeping dogs on leads where disturbance is likely
banning dogs (although these cannot be used on public rights of way)
requirement to prevent dog fouling"
http://www.bobw.co.uk/Default.aspx?page=legal%20po...
Edited by singlecoil on Sunday 6th May 14:23
Willy Nilly said:
If you read his post, the dog was off the lead when it was chasing the sheep. It injured the sheep. Normally when a dog injures sheep it doesn't kick it in the shins or rugby tackle it, it bites them, you know, with them sharp teeth that dogs seem to grow which are quite handy for killing things like sheep. I have seen what dogs do to sheep and posted the pictures on here but they got removed, because they were too unpleasant for the poor ickle doggy owners to see. The fact that the sheep killed were worth a small fortune as pedigree sheep was/is irrelevant.
Keep your dog on a lead and pick up it's st.
Do you want me to post the dead sheep pictures?
My dogs are always on leads and I always pick up their sKeep your dog on a lead and pick up it's s
t. Do you want me to post the dead sheep pictures?
t so rant on someone else.But for the hard of thinking I'll say again... On the spot revenge is not permitted in the uk. And if my dogs were under control when someone plod or not decided to make themselves judge jury and executioner and arbitrarily attempt to take and destroy one of them they would be wearing two sets of very sharp teeth and my fists.
Post what you fancy chap, I've seen plenty of dead and mangled things in my time.
veryRS said:
Willy Nilly said:
If you read his post, the dog was off the lead when it was chasing the sheep. It injured the sheep. Normally when a dog injures sheep it doesn't kick it in the shins or rugby tackle it, it bites them, you know, with them sharp teeth that dogs seem to grow which are quite handy for killing things like sheep. I have seen what dogs do to sheep and posted the pictures on here but they got removed, because they were too unpleasant for the poor ickle doggy owners to see. The fact that the sheep killed were worth a small fortune as pedigree sheep was/is irrelevant.
Keep your dog on a lead and pick up it's st.
Do you want me to post the dead sheep pictures?
My dogs are always on leads and I always pick up their sKeep your dog on a lead and pick up it's s
t. Do you want me to post the dead sheep pictures?
t so rant on someone else.But for the hard of thinking I'll say again... On the spot revenge is not permitted in the uk. And if my dogs were under control when someone plod or not decided to make themselves judge jury and executioner and arbitrarily attempt to take and destroy one of them they would be wearing two sets of very sharp teeth and my fists.
Post what you fancy chap, I've seen plenty of dead and mangled things in my time.
Willy Nilly said:
Why do you need some kind of trial for the dog that has chased/injured/killed sheep or other livestock? Has Rover got to have a word with his defence barrister and get his case together? The evidence is, the sheep are in a quivering heap in the corner of the field, some of them are dead and others are injured. Rover has been seen in chasing them, he's a bit sweaty and excited with blood on his chops. Guilty as charged.
Because once again arbitrary justice is not allowed in this country nor are eye for revenge killings. In the same way I couldnt hunt down and shoot a horse because it had trampled through my garden causing thousands of pounds of damage, even if I saw it doing so with or without rider on top*If you wanted to try to persue the dog owner for damages via the courts then feel free.
* Which begs another question...why do you get so wound up about dog s
t in your field when the countryside is awash with cow/sheep/rabbit/horse st? Edited by veryRS on Sunday 6th May 17:54
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