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fluffnik
17,380 posts
96 months
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Breadvan72 said: A Coroner can direct a verdict when the verdict is the only one that is sustainable on the evidence. What if the jury disagree?
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3Dee
2,546 posts
90 months
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So conversely, if an independant jury unanimously believe a defendant is 'guilty', then the Judge can overule?
Can the Judge acquit?
In that case would this not go to a retrial?
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jesta1865
2,320 posts
78 months
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Isaac Hunt said: jesta1865 said: except you are innocent until proven guilty (allegedly) in this country. Although there was no doubt that scroat A hit scroat B - there were plenty of witnesses. The only doubt was if it was in self defence. there was obviously enough doubt in the judges mind to make him feel no conviction was going to be found.
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daz3210
Original Poster
5,000 posts
109 months
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I guess you have to ask the question then what is the role of the Judge and the Jury in a court.
The Jury I guess are supposedly Lay People (can say a solicitor act as a juror if selected at random?), so will need legal advice on some points in law.
The Judge I guess is the chairperson of proceedings. But if he can 'judge' a case himself, what then is the point of the jury?
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zetec
3,186 posts
120 months
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Starfighter said: This does beg the question of why have a jury if the coroner can direct? Mind you, I never understood why a jury was required for a coroner's count in the first place. I would be very interested to the answer to this question, as my time sat on a Jury at 2 inquests really was IMO pointless.
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Breadvan72
10,229 posts
32 months
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Most inquests are heard without a jury, but a jury is mandatory in some cases (for example, a death in custody, or following police contact), and optional in other cases. A Coroner has power to stop a jury returning a verdict which would inevitably be set aside on a judicial review because it could not be sustainable on the facts available. In effect, the Coroner can order the jury not to return a verdict which would be, legally, perverse,
Inquests do not apportion blame, they simply investigate how a death occurred.
In a trial, where criminal liability is at issue, the Judge can instruct the jury not to convict perversely, but he cannot prevent a perverse acquittal.
These rule reflect the public policies against repeated inquests, and against wrongful convictions.
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streaky
18,240 posts
118 months
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Isaac Hunt said: jesta1865 said: except you are innocent until proven guilty (allegedly) in this country. Although there was no doubt that scroat A hit scroat B - there were plenty of witnesses. The only doubt was if it was in self defence. If there was no assault by B at the time leading to A hitting B, surely 'self-defence' against a threat issued some time earlier shouldn't fly? Streaky
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Jasandjules
45,434 posts
98 months
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streaky said: If there was no assault by B at the time leading to A hitting B, surely 'self-defence' against a threat issued some time earlier shouldn't fly?
Streaky Depends on if the person seeking to rely upon self defence felt threatened... IF someone said "I'm going to kick your f***ng head in" but left, and an hour later he came strolling over at you with a face like thunder and his fists up......... You might reasonably suspect he's going to make good his threat, and defend yourself before being attacked.
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daz3210
Original Poster
5,000 posts
109 months
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Jasandjules said: streaky said: If there was no assault by B at the time leading to A hitting B, surely 'self-defence' against a threat issued some time earlier shouldn't fly?
Streaky Depends on if the person seeking to rely upon self defence felt threatened... IF someone said "I'm going to kick your f***ng head in" but left, and an hour later he came strolling over at you with a face like thunder and his fists up......... You might reasonably suspect he's going to make good his threat, and defend yourself before being attacked. Somewhat true, but at what point is it lawful to act in self defence, does the first punch have to be thrown before you act?
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Breadvan72
10,229 posts
32 months
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No, the apprehension of violence can be sufficient.
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daz3210
Original Poster
5,000 posts
109 months
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Breadvan72 said: No, the apprehension of violence can be sufficient. So if I feel I may be smacked, stabbed or whatever, I can act first then?
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Breadvan72
10,229 posts
32 months
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Only if you are genuinely in fear of immediate violence to yourself or another. Your response must be proportionate to the perceived threat.
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daz3210
Original Poster
5,000 posts
109 months
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Breadvan72 said: Only if you are genuinely in fear of immediate violence to yourself or another. Your response must be proportionate to the perceived threat. SO how would I prove that? Lets take a situation the other night. I was in a pub, a peron of  type came in. Bojected to my looking at him and started squaring up. Could I have cracked him one? As it happened there was an off duty copper who intervened.
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Breadvan72
10,229 posts
32 months
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The answer is that it all depends on the evidence. As Lord Steyn said a few years ago, in law, as in life, context is everything. Self defence is a positive defence, but does not place a formal burden of proof upon the person who asserts it in court. In a prosecution, it would be for the Crown to prove that the defendant did not act on the basis of a subject apprehension of violence. Note that the test is subjective and not objective, but that would not excuse an irrationally sensitive response to a word or a look. In practice, a defendant would have to adduce at least some evidence of the context tohave a chance of succeeding in the defence.
The law of self defence favours the preservation of civil peace if possible, so , in the UK at any rate, it imposes a duty to retreat if retreat is possible. In the situation which you describe, if you had struck a blow when the perceived antagonist was merely adopting a fighty posture, you might have had difficulty with a self defence plea.
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streaky
18,240 posts
118 months
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^^^^^
Re the above responses, that's why I said "no assault" at the time .
Streaky
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Jasandjules
45,434 posts
98 months
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Breadvan72 said: Only if you are genuinely in fear of immediate violence to yourself or another. Your response must be proportionate to the perceived threat. Exactly. And the interesting point raised above is something that many people dont' realise - you can act to prevent an attack on someone else.
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3Dee
2,546 posts
90 months
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Jasandjules said: Breadvan72 said: Only if you are genuinely in fear of immediate violence to yourself or another. Your response must be proportionate to the perceived threat. Exactly. And the interesting point raised above is something that many people dont' realise - you can act to prevent an attack on someone else. BUT in not-infrequent circumstances (e.g. late at night after kicking-out time), this act can lead to a 'brawl' and a high probability of arrest, if not conviction for 'breach' etc. The POs attending would have great difficulty unravelling 'who-did-what-to-who-first'!
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Breadvan72
10,229 posts
32 months
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My brother and I once intervened as we were driving past a rough pub in Hackney, pulling a bloke from the middle of a crowd who were beating him severely with pool cues. We may perhaps have saved the man from death or brain injury. We threw him in the back of my car and sped off to a nearby A and E. The bloke left, against medical advice, as soon as he regained consciousness. My brother and I went to the police station to report the incident, and were grilled for hours, as the police could not seem to accept that we had no prior involvement in the fracas. Our shirts were soaked with the guy's blood, and it took a while to get the blood out of the cloth seats in my car. Hey ho, I am still glad that we acted.
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Lurking Lawyer
3,515 posts
94 months
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Breadvan72 said: My brother and I went to the police station to report the incident, and were grilled for hours, as the police could not seem to accept that we had no prior involvement in the fracas. And yet they wonder why the majority of people just walk on by and don't want to get involved.....
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contracttor
297 posts
54 months
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Isn't it called Jury Nullification?
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