Is wiping crap on a car a crime?
Discussion
DaveH23 said:
So driving along a dirty road is criminal damage if you have to wash your car aswell (exact same 'fix')
As I mentioned I hope the scrote is caught but I really do not agree that this is classed as damage.
Crimes are committed by humans, not roads. A human applying dirt to another human's property without his consent may be committing criminal damage.As I mentioned I hope the scrote is caught but I really do not agree that this is classed as damage.
The law says what it says. Whether you agree with it is of no relevance at all
CPS advice on the meaning of damage...
CPS said:
Damage is not defined by the Act. The courts have construed the term liberally. Damage is not limited to permanent damage, so smearing mud on the walls of a police cell may be criminal damage. What constitutes damage is a matter of fact and degree and it is for the court, using its common sense, to decide whether what occurred is damage (Archbold 23-6).
The damage need not be visible or tangible if it affects the value or performance of the property.
The damage need not be visible or tangible if it affects the value or performance of the property.
DaveH23 said:
otolith said:
PAULJ5555 said:
But what has been damaged???? for criminal damage.
Damage does not need to be permanent;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_damage_in_En...
Bluebarge said:
DaveH23 said:
So driving along a dirty road is criminal damage if you have to wash your car aswell (exact same 'fix')
As I mentioned I hope the scrote is caught but I really do not agree that this is classed as damage.
Crimes are committed by humans, not roads. A human applying dirt to another human's property without his consent may be committing criminal damage.As I mentioned I hope the scrote is caught but I really do not agree that this is classed as damage.
The law says what it says. Whether you agree with it is of no relevance at all
Me saying 'I do not agree' is probably not worded the best, I hope it is for the sake of the OP but I dont think it will be.
98elise said:
My wife just called me to say that someone has smeared s
t all over my lotus, and on the house wall 
This is the day after I told my BTL tenant that they need to leave the property due to rent arrears!
Is actually a crime? Obviously its not damaged as it will wash off, but I'd like to record it incase things start to escalate.
Criminal damage or harrasment.t all over my lotus, and on the house wall This is the day after I told my BTL tenant that they need to leave the property due to rent arrears!
Is actually a crime? Obviously its not damaged as it will wash off, but I'd like to record it incase things start to escalate.
Edited by 98elise on Wednesday 13th June 19:24
DaveH23 said:
Whilst I hope this is the case and I hope the culprit is caught and coloured in using said excrement I really don’t see how this is criminal damage.
After being cleaned was there any damage?
As mentioned though keep a diary of anything that does happen?
Is there anyway the OP could set up some kind of camera?
The key phrase is after being cleaned. Some action is required on behalf of the owner to return the object to its original or a useable condition. We had a spate of ring pulls from cans being inserted into parking meters rendering them inefective. All that was required to return the meter to its original condition was to open it, remove the ring pull and lock it again.After being cleaned was there any damage?
As mentioned though keep a diary of anything that does happen?
Is there anyway the OP could set up some kind of camera?
A little bit of research brought up a case of Luddites who removed a key from machines and hid them meaning that they could not be started. Theft (in those days) could not be proved so they went for crimdam. King Lud found guilty. The damage, as pointed out earlier, does not have to be permanent. Further, there were other cases which meant that even if rain would wash the damage away, leaving the item in more or less usable form, it was still damage.
The trick is not to use the dictionary definition of a word but rather the legal term. In drugs legislation premises can include a field. Illogical I know but the definition of the person who expected the law to make sense is someone who needs a lawyer.
Dwight VanDriver said:
Game, ste and match.........isn't DNA present in excreta ?
dvd
Once had to ask a SOCO this question. The answer was yes, but it is found in small quantities and difficult/costly to extract, therefore only likely to be done for murder, rape, serious assault or a crime series of significance. Would always be a cost-benefit analysis.dvd
Also had to ask about urine. Was told that you would need about a litre of urine to be sufficiently likely to find DNA from the urinator. I told him he was taking the piss.
DaveH23 said:
otolith said:
PAULJ5555 said:
But what has been damaged???? for criminal damage.
Damage does not need to be permanent;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_damage_in_En...
OP got off lightly then dog poo = wipe off, keyed paint = ££££££££.
I asked about a milkshake poured over a car was CDam and I supose it is but the intention would need to be proved, Yes. But if you were walking past a car with milkshake in hand and you fell, whos to know!!!!!
Ms Demeanor said:
98elise said:
My wife just called me to say that someone has smeared st all over my lotus, and on the house wall
This is the day after I told my BTL tenant that they need to leave the property due to rent arrears!
Is actually a crime? Obviously its not damaged as it will wash off, but I'd like to record it incase things start to escalate.
Criminal damage or harrasment.t all over my lotus, and on the house wall This is the day after I told my BTL tenant that they need to leave the property due to rent arrears!
Is actually a crime? Obviously its not damaged as it will wash off, but I'd like to record it incase things start to escalate.
Edited by 98elise on Wednesday 13th June 19:24
Derek Smith said:
The trick is not to use the dictionary definition of a word but rather the legal term. In drugs legislation premises can include a field. Illogical I know but the definition of the person who expected the law to make sense is someone who needs a lawyer.
Unless directed otherwise, you should assume a word has its ordinary and natural meaning. I'm not aware of 'damage' being specifically defined within this legislation, so you should take its ordinary meaning. 10 Pence Short said:
Derek Smith said:
The trick is not to use the dictionary definition of a word but rather the legal term. In drugs legislation premises can include a field. Illogical I know but the definition of the person who expected the law to make sense is someone who needs a lawyer.
Unless directed otherwise, you should assume a word has its ordinary and natural meaning. I'm not aware of 'damage' being specifically defined within this legislation, so you should take its ordinary meaning. A word should be understood by way of case stateds, hence the reference to the drugs act 'premises' to include a field. Hardly its normal meaning. In fact I'd suggest just the opposite.
Another classic is 'uniform'. There is uniform as used by the general public and uniform as understood by judges. I've often thought that the main purpose of lawyers is to change the meaning of words.
Another one is driving of course. I seem to remember the case of a chap buying flowers or a newspaper at a stand being defined as driving. Good one that. And, for the purpose of this thread, damage has a very odd meaning in law. Hiding a key does not constitute damage in ordinary useage. Of course it doesn't. Yet there judges go. Got to love 'em unless you have a good knowledge of the English language and etymological derivation of words.
One case I lost in court when I was a probationer failed on the word 'including'. I thought that it meant that the items in the following list were included, but I was wrong. Fair enough, the chap had bought himself a flash brief but I thought my rather good understanding of the English language, not to mention knowledge of definitions, would stand me in good stead but, it seems, I was wrong. Since then I have always ignored the dictionary and instead opted for case stated. I've not had the same problem since.
I have around a dozen dictionaries at home, all of which are useless when trying to work out the legal definition of a word.
Derek Smith said:
In drugs legislation premises can include a field. Illogical I know but the definition of the person who expected the law to make sense is someone who needs a lawyer.
Have you looked at the ordinary and plain meaning of 'premises'? Premises is land and the buildings on it. A field is a pretty good example of land, is it not? By the ordinary meaning, it would be illogical to think a field is not 'premises'.10 Pence Short said:
Take a look at the 'literal rule'.
Rules, eh? Is that what judges go by? If indeed this was a rule then driving would be driving and premises would require some form of structure. Tacking premises, a field, empty of all structures, was felt to come within the remit of premises. I'm not arguing against the logic of the decision that police powers should have been extended to it, only the logic of the decision that it was encompassed in the definition of premises when it patently was not.Judges do not like be limited by rules, rather ironic given their job, but there you go. I have studied the interpretation of statutes and have to say that I sometimes feel that I differ from judges in that way.
It is easy enough to quote ‘rules’ but in practice it is best to work out what the practice is.
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