Question: I overtake, car matches my speed and I have to
Discussion
In my younger and more foolish days, I did once attempt to block an overtake. The guy had arrived 3 feet off my back bumper at warp 6 after jumping a light that changed to red just after I went through. Proceeded to follow me at the ridiculously close distance for a quarter of a mile or so, then around the next roundabout. All the time I'd been doing on or over the speed limit so he was clearly in a hurry. Anyway he dropped a cog, I was already in third and accelerated because frankly I thought I knew best.
He ended up completing the overtake when I caught up to some traffic and eased off, but instead of coming in front of me where I'd left space went three cars further down and swerved in ahead of the front of the queue, narrowly missing a traffic island and having a rear-end wiggle in the process.
It pretty much summed up what I had originally thought of his driving when he came tear-arsing up behind me, but I'm pretty ashamed of my actions now even so.
He ended up completing the overtake when I caught up to some traffic and eased off, but instead of coming in front of me where I'd left space went three cars further down and swerved in ahead of the front of the queue, narrowly missing a traffic island and having a rear-end wiggle in the process.
It pretty much summed up what I had originally thought of his driving when he came tear-arsing up behind me, but I'm pretty ashamed of my actions now even so.
Pixelpeep said:
thats why i like the run up theory.. by the time they realise what your doing their small window of torque won't save um 
This is risky. If you've taken a 'run up' and approach the overtakee a lot faster than they are, you're left with no exit path should the overtake suddenly become unavailable.The triangle overtake is more likely to produce the effect you want - to travel faster. If the overtakee is clearly not wanting you to get past, having a REALLY good look (by moving the car well over the white lines to the opposing lane) actually provokes them to get a move on - what you are after. It does require that your vehicle be able to pick up it's heels and go if the overtake is on and they stay put.
If they don't react to your taking a good, OBVIOUS look at the road ahead, they are unlikely to resist an overtake.
A comment on the "minimise TED" approach. I largely agree that you get your overtakes executed with no messing about and as quickly and decisively as you can - but here is the scenario.
I'm in in a line of cars on a single lane part of Snake Pass, everyone following a laden HGV whilst it crawls up the 1 in 20 hill doing about 15mph. Nobody between me and the HGV appears to be interested in getting past it. I'm about 13 cars back. I pick the right gear, and begin a triangle overtake - I swing well over onto the other carriage way a) to get a right good look at the road ahead and b) so people can see me. I want all overtakees to know I'm coming. Nobody moves, they continue crawling. Road is suprisingly clear for 600m+, so I just accelerate. By the time I've passed 5/6 cars (still 5/6/7 cars and the HGV to to) - I'm at the NSL and my speed differential with the overtakees is getting a bit high (they're still at 15-20mph).
At what point do you go "okay, if one of these muppets hasn't seen me coming and pulls out without shoulder checking I'm going to hit him". I stopped accelerating and held speed to complete the overtake. If I'd held on throttle I would have been at very illegal speeds when passing the HGV.
Thankfully everybody sat still, I sailed past the lot onto an empty segment of the snake pass. However, it did illustrate to me that "going WOT to get past" CAN produce a speed differential with the overtakee that becomes dangerous if they pull out without having seen you.
Whats the Advanced Drivers guidance for that scenario ?
Dont worry Gav,
I don't think anyone else noticed.
I reckon somebody else may have added a post and then deleted it, afterwards.
That would have flagged it as a new post - but shown nothing to mere mortals like us.
Only the moderators would see it.
I don't think anyone else noticed.
I reckon somebody else may have added a post and then deleted it, afterwards.
That would have flagged it as a new post - but shown nothing to mere mortals like us.
Only the moderators would see it.
Edited by Hol on Wednesday 29th October 15:27
Some genius tried to prevent my overtake today and only succeeded in having to anchor up when I pulled into the space I had chosen to end up in. Lots of light flashing, I waved an ambiguous thanks and ignored the pleb. If he hadn't tried to close the gap he wouldn't had had to brake. Why do they do this sort of thing? Then to get all angry at me. Ironically I only overtook because another driver had pulled out on me.
HertsBiker said:
Some genius tried to prevent my overtake today and only succeeded in having to anchor up when I pulled into the space I had chosen to end up in. Lots of light flashing, I waved an ambiguous thanks and ignored the pleb. If he hadn't tried to close the gap he wouldn't had had to brake. Why do they do this sort of thing? Then to get all angry at me. Ironically I only overtook because another driver had pulled out on me.
It's perception, might have seemed all fine and dandy to you, but to him it may have been pointless and inconsiderate. Not suggesting it was either, but.Were you on your bike?
Bikers have a particular bad habit of pulling into the gap between two cars (that the second car had delivberately left for safe braking distance between his bonnet and the car in fronts boot) and then deciding they need more distance themselves and the original front car.
To the biker this may seem like a valid overtake, but to everybody who is not a biker luvvy it is much more simple - somebody has just forced themselves into their braking zone and made me brake to now allow the biker to in the gap that now needs to be a lot longer.
In no other part of life away from the road (supermarket queue/ busy footpath/ escallator/ cinema queue/ airport queue/ ski slope/ etc), would such behaviour be considered correct.
Bikers have a particular bad habit of pulling into the gap between two cars (that the second car had delivberately left for safe braking distance between his bonnet and the car in fronts boot) and then deciding they need more distance themselves and the original front car.
To the biker this may seem like a valid overtake, but to everybody who is not a biker luvvy it is much more simple - somebody has just forced themselves into their braking zone and made me brake to now allow the biker to in the gap that now needs to be a lot longer.
In no other part of life away from the road (supermarket queue/ busy footpath/ escallator/ cinema queue/ airport queue/ ski slope/ etc), would such behaviour be considered correct.
A chap I work with admitted to me that if he is driving to the speed limit and someone tries to overtake then he will speed up to prevent the overtake. I suggested to him that to do this is stupidly dangerous and I asked him what right did he have to police the speed limit, he replied ‘well, they shouldn’t be going faster than the speed limit’.
He’s an idiot. I suggested that he may well cause a death one day and that the speeding car could be someone getting to a hospital, emergency services or the police! He just looks and gins blankly.
To prove the idiocy, he’s been out test driving new cars and he delights in telling me how the car is great as it gets to 120 mph so quickly. I ask why he thought 120 mph on a B road is a good idea, he just grins his stupid grin.
I think he’s just dim, I’m angry just writing this.
He’s an idiot. I suggested that he may well cause a death one day and that the speeding car could be someone getting to a hospital, emergency services or the police! He just looks and gins blankly.
To prove the idiocy, he’s been out test driving new cars and he delights in telling me how the car is great as it gets to 120 mph so quickly. I ask why he thought 120 mph on a B road is a good idea, he just grins his stupid grin.
I think he’s just dim, I’m angry just writing this.
cheesesliceking said:
HertsBiker said:
Some genius tried to prevent my overtake today and only succeeded in having to anchor up when I pulled into the space I had chosen to end up in. Lots of light flashing, I waved an ambiguous thanks and ignored the pleb. If he hadn't tried to close the gap he wouldn't had had to brake. Why do they do this sort of thing? Then to get all angry at me. Ironically I only overtook because another driver had pulled out on me.
It's perception, might have seemed all fine and dandy to you, but to him it may have been pointless and inconsiderate. Not suggesting it was either, but.I ended up behind him the other day so thought I'd overtake as I didn't want to sit at that speed for ages. I performed a nice, safe overtake on a straight piece of road and gave the Astra loads of room. The driver's response? He sped up as I was overtaking and then proceeded to sit on my rear bumper for the rest of the journey until we went our separate ways.
He seemed quite angry, but saved the best til last. As we approached a roundabout which he turns off and I go straight over, he actually tried to force his vehicle alongside mine. He approached the roundabout straddling the white lines in the middle of the road and tried to push himself alongside me. As I was going straight over, I went to the left of the road anyway. Bizarre behaviour!
gavsdavs said:
A comment on the "minimise TED" approach. I largely agree that you get your overtakes executed with no messing about and as quickly and decisively as you can - but here is the scenario.
I'm in in a line of cars on a single lane part of Snake Pass, everyone following a laden HGV whilst it crawls up the 1 in 20 hill doing about 15mph. Nobody between me and the HGV appears to be interested in getting past it. I'm about 13 cars back. I pick the right gear, and begin a triangle overtake - I swing well over onto the other carriage way a) to get a right good look at the road ahead and b) so people can see me. I want all overtakees to know I'm coming. Nobody moves, they continue crawling. Road is suprisingly clear for 600m+, so I just accelerate. By the time I've passed 5/6 cars (still 5/6/7 cars and the HGV to to) - I'm at the NSL and my speed differential with the overtakees is getting a bit high (they're still at 15-20mph).
At what point do you go "okay, if one of these muppets hasn't seen me coming and pulls out without shoulder checking I'm going to hit him". I stopped accelerating and held speed to complete the overtake. If I'd held on throttle I would have been at very illegal speeds when passing the HGV.
Thankfully everybody sat still, I sailed past the lot onto an empty segment of the snake pass. However, it did illustrate to me that "going WOT to get past" CAN produce a speed differential with the overtakee that becomes dangerous if they pull out without having seen you.
Whats the Advanced Drivers guidance for that scenario ?
You can't have been at the NSL. The Snake Pass is limited to 50. I'm in in a line of cars on a single lane part of Snake Pass, everyone following a laden HGV whilst it crawls up the 1 in 20 hill doing about 15mph. Nobody between me and the HGV appears to be interested in getting past it. I'm about 13 cars back. I pick the right gear, and begin a triangle overtake - I swing well over onto the other carriage way a) to get a right good look at the road ahead and b) so people can see me. I want all overtakees to know I'm coming. Nobody moves, they continue crawling. Road is suprisingly clear for 600m+, so I just accelerate. By the time I've passed 5/6 cars (still 5/6/7 cars and the HGV to to) - I'm at the NSL and my speed differential with the overtakees is getting a bit high (they're still at 15-20mph).
At what point do you go "okay, if one of these muppets hasn't seen me coming and pulls out without shoulder checking I'm going to hit him". I stopped accelerating and held speed to complete the overtake. If I'd held on throttle I would have been at very illegal speeds when passing the HGV.
Thankfully everybody sat still, I sailed past the lot onto an empty segment of the snake pass. However, it did illustrate to me that "going WOT to get past" CAN produce a speed differential with the overtakee that becomes dangerous if they pull out without having seen you.
Whats the Advanced Drivers guidance for that scenario ?
If the HGV and its convoy were only doing 20mph then I would say a 30mph differential might possibly be a tad too much especially if someone were to belatedly wake up to the possibility of an overtake. Was there a sufficient gap between the cars for you to abort the pass at any stage? 13 cars + a HGV in 600 metres: there aren't many places with a 1 in 20 gradient with that amount of clear sightline. Which bit was it? The only other point is that I would probably have had my headlights on as soon as I was offside.
Of course it helps having a shedload of torque to get the process started.
Hudson said:
The trick is to catch them off guard, Don't indicate (obviously if it's clear) or give any clue that your going to overtake until you're doing it. 9/10 they never react in time to show how much of a man they are by blocking you.
I used to commute down B roads teeming with bellends on a daily basis, in a heavy 130bhp diesel mondeo and this method never failed
This 1 million percent, hang right back, because if it's as safe overtake a few car lengths won't make a difference. Select a low gear and then when the moment is right, check noone is doing the same behind you then just floor it & pass them without indicating, too many bellends out there to bother giving them an early warning if what you're doing is safe. I also am not concerned about breaking the speed limit for a few seconds to pass safely & build up a nice gap to show that it was worthwhile. No doubt others will disagree.I used to commute down B roads teeming with bellends on a daily basis, in a heavy 130bhp diesel mondeo and this method never failed
Hol said:
Were you on your bike?
Bikers have a particular bad habit of pulling into the gap between two cars (that the second car had delivberately left for safe braking distance between his bonnet and the car in fronts boot) and then deciding they need more distance themselves and the original front car.
To the biker this may seem like a valid overtake, but to everybody who is not a biker luvvy it is much more simple - somebody has just forced themselves into their braking zone and made me brake to now allow the biker to in the gap that now needs to be a lot longer.
In no other part of life away from the road (supermarket queue/ busy footpath/ escallator/ cinema queue/ airport queue/ ski slope/ etc), would such behaviour be considered correct.
I've just returned to motorcycling at middle age and, quite frankly, it frightens me to death. I admit having been guilty of the above offence a few times recently and everytime I've done it, it feels bloody dangerous for me, not just the driver behind. I'll not be doing it again!Bikers have a particular bad habit of pulling into the gap between two cars (that the second car had delivberately left for safe braking distance between his bonnet and the car in fronts boot) and then deciding they need more distance themselves and the original front car.
To the biker this may seem like a valid overtake, but to everybody who is not a biker luvvy it is much more simple - somebody has just forced themselves into their braking zone and made me brake to now allow the biker to in the gap that now needs to be a lot longer.
In no other part of life away from the road (supermarket queue/ busy footpath/ escallator/ cinema queue/ airport queue/ ski slope/ etc), would such behaviour be considered correct.
As far a leaving enough space is concerned, I will now overtake on a bike how I would overtake like a car overtaking a car. Those winter riding courses look pretty tempting - I shall be signing up to one of those, too.
Edited by normal bloke on Saturday 1st November 17:05
knitware said:
A chap I work with admitted to me that if he is driving to the speed limit and someone tries to overtake then he will speed up to prevent the overtake. I suggested to him that to do this is stupidly dangerous and I asked him what right did he have to police the speed limit, he replied ‘well, they shouldn’t be going faster than the speed limit’.
And yet he thinks he is entitled to break the limit to "police" it?Idiot.
No, I was in the car. There was AMPLE space to overtake in, and matey had left a large gap. Eg, 4 seconds or so. So I knew it was safe to overtake. He then closed it up but I was past it, and pulling in. I could have gone by the next car but it felt a bit rude to do so. Genius was clearly upset at being overtaken and expected me to drop back. I don't get these probs on the bike, ever.
Hol said:
Were you on your bike?
Bikers have a particular bad habit of pulling into the gap between two cars (that the second car had delivberately left for safe braking distance between his bonnet and the car in fronts boot) and then deciding they need more distance themselves and the original front car.
To the biker this may seem like a valid overtake, but to everybody who is not a biker luvvy it is much more simple - somebody has just forced themselves into their braking zone and made me brake to now allow the biker to in the gap that now needs to be a lot longer.
In no other part of life away from the road (supermarket queue/ busy footpath/ escallator/ cinema queue/ airport queue/ ski slope/ etc), would such behaviour be considered correct.
On the other hand if you're not planning to overtake the vehicle in front, maybe you should leave enough space between it and you for someone else that wants to...Bikers have a particular bad habit of pulling into the gap between two cars (that the second car had delivberately left for safe braking distance between his bonnet and the car in fronts boot) and then deciding they need more distance themselves and the original front car.
To the biker this may seem like a valid overtake, but to everybody who is not a biker luvvy it is much more simple - somebody has just forced themselves into their braking zone and made me brake to now allow the biker to in the gap that now needs to be a lot longer.
In no other part of life away from the road (supermarket queue/ busy footpath/ escallator/ cinema queue/ airport queue/ ski slope/ etc), would such behaviour be considered correct.
catso said:
Hol said:
Were you on your bike?
Bikers have a particular bad habit of pulling into the gap between two cars (that the second car had delivberately left for safe braking distance between his bonnet and the car in fronts boot) and then deciding they need more distance themselves and the original front car.
To the biker this may seem like a valid overtake, but to everybody who is not a biker luvvy it is much more simple - somebody has just forced themselves into their braking zone and made me brake to now allow the biker to in the gap that now needs to be a lot longer.
In no other part of life away from the road (supermarket queue/ busy footpath/ escallator/ cinema queue/ airport queue/ ski slope/ etc), would such behaviour be considered correct.
On the other hand if you're not planning to overtake the vehicle in front, maybe you should leave enough space between it and you for someone else that wants to...Bikers have a particular bad habit of pulling into the gap between two cars (that the second car had delivberately left for safe braking distance between his bonnet and the car in fronts boot) and then deciding they need more distance themselves and the original front car.
To the biker this may seem like a valid overtake, but to everybody who is not a biker luvvy it is much more simple - somebody has just forced themselves into their braking zone and made me brake to now allow the biker to in the gap that now needs to be a lot longer.
In no other part of life away from the road (supermarket queue/ busy footpath/ escallator/ cinema queue/ airport queue/ ski slope/ etc), would such behaviour be considered correct.
I was on my way to the Goodwood Revival several years ago. NSL country road, clear conditions, not too twisty so I was travelling at 60ish in my old Saab 93. A police car came up behind me. No lights/sirens, so I made sure I kept my speed below the limit, no problems for the next couple of miles.
I then caught up with a driver doing 40. Pretty sure it was a Honda. I sat behind him for a while until a nice long straight gave me an overtaking opportunity. I indicated, moved out and went to pass. He sped up. I got to just over 60mph alongside him, he held the speed and glared at me, mouthing something or other. It was clear he wasn't going to let me past, and a car was coming towards us by now, so I pulled back in behind him. He went back to 40mph, making hand gestures for my benefit.
Second straight appeared, so I again tried the overtake, same result. Hand gestures, his speed matching mine. This time when I pulled in behind him he slowed down to 30 for a bit then back to 40.
So I indicated left, slowed down. The police car pulled past me, turned on the lights and sirens and pulled him over. I stopped behind them.
One copper went to his car, the other came to mine. He was laughing, said something along the lines of, "guess he was too busy swearing at you to notice us." He took my details and said he thought they had enough to book him for dangerous driving.
I went on my way, gave the Honda driver a nice wave as he was being b
ked. I didn't hear anything else, hope he got a few points...
I then caught up with a driver doing 40. Pretty sure it was a Honda. I sat behind him for a while until a nice long straight gave me an overtaking opportunity. I indicated, moved out and went to pass. He sped up. I got to just over 60mph alongside him, he held the speed and glared at me, mouthing something or other. It was clear he wasn't going to let me past, and a car was coming towards us by now, so I pulled back in behind him. He went back to 40mph, making hand gestures for my benefit.
Second straight appeared, so I again tried the overtake, same result. Hand gestures, his speed matching mine. This time when I pulled in behind him he slowed down to 30 for a bit then back to 40.
So I indicated left, slowed down. The police car pulled past me, turned on the lights and sirens and pulled him over. I stopped behind them.
One copper went to his car, the other came to mine. He was laughing, said something along the lines of, "guess he was too busy swearing at you to notice us." He took my details and said he thought they had enough to book him for dangerous driving.
I went on my way, gave the Honda driver a nice wave as he was being b
ked. I didn't hear anything else, hope he got a few points...bonjeroo said:
I was on my way to the Goodwood Revival several years ago. NSL country road, clear conditions, not too twisty so I was travelling at 60ish in my old Saab 93. A police car came up behind me. No lights/sirens, so I made sure I kept my speed below the limit, no problems for the next couple of miles.
I then caught up with a driver doing 40. Pretty sure it was a Honda. I sat behind him for a while until a nice long straight gave me an overtaking opportunity. I indicated, moved out and went to pass. He sped up. I got to just over 60mph alongside him, he held the speed and glared at me, mouthing something or other. It was clear he wasn't going to let me past, and a car was coming towards us by now, so I pulled back in behind him. He went back to 40mph, making hand gestures for my benefit.
Second straight appeared, so I again tried the overtake, same result. Hand gestures, his speed matching mine. This time when I pulled in behind him he slowed down to 30 for a bit then back to 40.
So I indicated left, slowed down. The police car pulled past me, turned on the lights and sirens and pulled him over. I stopped behind them.
One copper went to his car, the other came to mine. He was laughing, said something along the lines of, "guess he was too busy swearing at you to notice us." He took my details and said he thought they had enough to book him for dangerous driving.
I went on my way, gave the Honda driver a nice wave as he was being bked. I didn't hear anything else, hope he got a few points...
He He. A good tale. I then caught up with a driver doing 40. Pretty sure it was a Honda. I sat behind him for a while until a nice long straight gave me an overtaking opportunity. I indicated, moved out and went to pass. He sped up. I got to just over 60mph alongside him, he held the speed and glared at me, mouthing something or other. It was clear he wasn't going to let me past, and a car was coming towards us by now, so I pulled back in behind him. He went back to 40mph, making hand gestures for my benefit.
Second straight appeared, so I again tried the overtake, same result. Hand gestures, his speed matching mine. This time when I pulled in behind him he slowed down to 30 for a bit then back to 40.
So I indicated left, slowed down. The police car pulled past me, turned on the lights and sirens and pulled him over. I stopped behind them.
One copper went to his car, the other came to mine. He was laughing, said something along the lines of, "guess he was too busy swearing at you to notice us." He took my details and said he thought they had enough to book him for dangerous driving.
I went on my way, gave the Honda driver a nice wave as he was being b
ked. I didn't hear anything else, hope he got a few points...A few years back I was driving along the A15, at the reg 60. when I saw a motorcyclist in my mirror. I always give them any room I can, as if we all used bikes there'd be no traffic jams!... Anyway he overtook me, pulled in front and immediately slammed on the anchors! Thankfully I did the same and didn't hit him (but it put the s
ts up me I can tell you) Why did this happen? He'd seen the yellow gatso 30yds in front! He put a hand up to thank me for not killing him, but it would have probably flashed me anyway. I'd have preferred a fine rather than kill him frankly. A close one, and I wonder what would have happened if there was a tragic outcome. Just shows you can never predict everything on the road.Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff