Question: I overtake, car matches my speed and I have to
Discussion
FlauM said:
I had this the other day. I came off a roundabout onto a road which was two lanes that merge into one. I overtook some cars doing around 30 in a NSL when the final car decided to speed up. So I was on the offside, facing oncoming traffic and about to contravene a solid-white line - so I managed to force my way in. The driver then backed off and followed me at a safe distance until I turned off about 6 miles down the road, to which he then flashed his lights and stated that he wanted to jerk me off.
Strange chap.
On reading your account my opinion would be that you failed to judge the situation correctly and put yourself into a precarious position. To remove yourself from that position you relied on help from other motorists.Strange chap.
On your account that doesn't sound like a fault with the other motorist, but with you.
None of the above excuses the other driver from making suggestions as to your favourite pastime, though what went before perhaps explains the frustration with you that led to it.
10 Pence Short said:
On reading your account my opinion would be that you failed to judge the situation correctly and put yourself into a precarious position. To remove yourself from that position you relied on help from other motorists.
On your account that doesn't sound like a fault with the other motorist, but with you.
None of the above excuses the other driver from making suggestions as to your favourite pastime, though what went before perhaps explains the frustration with you that led to it.
Sorry but could you please elaborate on how I misjudged this situation? I had basically completed the overtake when he decided to speed up. How do I know he sped up? Because I saw the puff off black smoke come out of the diesel's exhaust. And could you explain how other motorists helped me? It was his car that I managed to force my way in with. HTH On your account that doesn't sound like a fault with the other motorist, but with you.
None of the above excuses the other driver from making suggestions as to your favourite pastime, though what went before perhaps explains the frustration with you that led to it.
Unfortunately I'm on my iPhone so whilst I can get google maps I'm unsure on how to link it to the forum.
The place was the A64 Roundabout where one way goes towards Scarborough/York and the other way goes toward Leeds. It comes off the roundabout as a two-lane road which merges to one.
The place was the A64 Roundabout where one way goes towards Scarborough/York and the other way goes toward Leeds. It comes off the roundabout as a two-lane road which merges to one.
If it was just the final car that accelerated then the safest point of return is usually behind it, as it will have opened up a gap.
The fact that he is accelerating implies he has not noticed you or wants to prevent you from passing him. Either way I would want to be behind him rather than forcing my way in, in front of him. Unless of course I was treating the situation as a competition or thought I needed to enforce my interpretation of the rules for merging on him.
Well done him for following you at a safe distance despite you forcing your way in.
(I would not describe an overtake as complete - even basically - until I have safely returned to my side of the road and my expected point of return usually takes into account the possibility of accelerating and decelerating traffic.)
The fact that he is accelerating implies he has not noticed you or wants to prevent you from passing him. Either way I would want to be behind him rather than forcing my way in, in front of him. Unless of course I was treating the situation as a competition or thought I needed to enforce my interpretation of the rules for merging on him.
Well done him for following you at a safe distance despite you forcing your way in.
(I would not describe an overtake as complete - even basically - until I have safely returned to my side of the road and my expected point of return usually takes into account the possibility of accelerating and decelerating traffic.)
FlauM said:
Unfortunately I'm on my iPhone so whilst I can get google maps I'm unsure on how to link it to the forum.
The place was the A64 Roundabout where one way goes towards Scarborough/York and the other way goes toward Leeds. It comes off the roundabout as a two-lane road which merges to one.
I'm assuming from your post it's somewhere between York and the Leeds ring road. In which case, there are two likely locations; leaving the Leeds Ring Road on the A64 heading towards York or heading towards Leeds from the A1(M) junction with the A64.The place was the A64 Roundabout where one way goes towards Scarborough/York and the other way goes toward Leeds. It comes off the roundabout as a two-lane road which merges to one.
Is it one of these?
Unfortunately the attitude described in this thread is prevalent even on my poxy little 3 mile urban commute. Not in terms of overtaking on a single or dual carriageway, but just on a busy little roundabout.
It's basically the size of a mini-roundabout at the intersection of two roads making a perfect crossroads, but with a built-up roundabout island. An HGV can only juuust fit round it slowly and carefully with no other vehicles on the roundabout. It has two or three lanes feeding onto and exiting the roundabout in all directions, and it's also extremely busy and chaotic - it frequently gets described as being like "Wacky Races" at this roundabout. The kind of junction a nervous or learner driver would simply get stuck, unable to pull out, until rush hour was over.
In the direction I usually encounter problems, there are two lanes approaching the roundabout. At the last minute, the left lane splits again, to provide a separate left turn lane. What is now the middle lane is marked as straight on, and the right lane is marked straight on and right. There's usually more traffic waiting to turn left than anything else, and the traffic tails back all the way down the two-lane section - so the approach to the left and middle lanes onto the roundabout is jammed up. I want to go straight on, so I use the right lane, and avoid the traffic queuing to go left.
On the other side of the roundabout where I want to go, the road quickly narrows from two lanes to one. Most of the time, the traffic does zip merging here, and everything is fine. But not a week goes by that I personally encounter or witness some knuckle-dragging s
tbrained tt try and cause an accident.
Because of the way the traffic clears from right to left in front of you on the roundabout, it's natural that the car in the right-most lane will get to join the roundabout first when there's a gap. Sometimes I get to go well before the car on my left, and slot in neatly in turn after the roundabout. Sometimes there's no advantage, and we both depart at the same time, or the other car accelerates more sharply than me, in which case I slot in behind them, or keep pace with them and wave them in front or see if they do the same for me. Either way, it all flows, civilly.
Until one day you pull out from the right hand lane in the roundabout, and hear an almighty diesel thrash from somewhere behind to your left. It's the knuckle-dragger, usually in a knackered Passat estate or suchlike, taking massive personal offence that another vehicle, correctly using a lane marked for that direction, is about to take his "place" in the flow of traffic. I say "his" because it's never a woman. Even though you're safely and legitimately in front using alternative lanes, they come back at you, being on the verge of driving into the side of you as the road narrows. They blast their horns, the cars rock as they jump around and gesticulate furiously, and the glow of their angry red faces lights up the inside of their car. I've had traffic tailgate me within inches having merged ahead of them with the driver bellowing at his windscreen, or get their front bumper alongside my rear, and drive alongside me on the left, preventing me from taking the correct position in the now-single lane.
In theory the correct thing to do in these situations is avoid escalating it and let the knuckle-dragger have their way. But it all happens over such a short distance (and at < 20mph) that there simply isn't the room or time to let them come past you. It's wrong, but in some cases the adrenaline kicks in when you realise you've got a proper mentalist behind who wants "his" place in the traffic at any cost, and you're going to have to push back, or get pushed into a bollard on a traffic island.
I always try and adhere to the principle that good driving does not rely on the kindness or ability of other drivers, but it's difficult to account for those that deliberately create this 15mph game of chicken when they're already behind you, and thus cannot be controlled. I just don't understand what the hell is wrong with them. It's not a race. It's not a competition. It's not a personal comment on their manhood. If they're in such a damn rush, why are they choosing to sit in a queue of traffic waiting to turn left, instead of using the empty lane to their right which is also marked for straight on?
I can only sympathise with those that have to deal with this reaction when real speeds are involved on flowing A-roads. The rage of these people must turn lethal at times.
It's basically the size of a mini-roundabout at the intersection of two roads making a perfect crossroads, but with a built-up roundabout island. An HGV can only juuust fit round it slowly and carefully with no other vehicles on the roundabout. It has two or three lanes feeding onto and exiting the roundabout in all directions, and it's also extremely busy and chaotic - it frequently gets described as being like "Wacky Races" at this roundabout. The kind of junction a nervous or learner driver would simply get stuck, unable to pull out, until rush hour was over.
In the direction I usually encounter problems, there are two lanes approaching the roundabout. At the last minute, the left lane splits again, to provide a separate left turn lane. What is now the middle lane is marked as straight on, and the right lane is marked straight on and right. There's usually more traffic waiting to turn left than anything else, and the traffic tails back all the way down the two-lane section - so the approach to the left and middle lanes onto the roundabout is jammed up. I want to go straight on, so I use the right lane, and avoid the traffic queuing to go left.
On the other side of the roundabout where I want to go, the road quickly narrows from two lanes to one. Most of the time, the traffic does zip merging here, and everything is fine. But not a week goes by that I personally encounter or witness some knuckle-dragging s
tbrained tt try and cause an accident.Because of the way the traffic clears from right to left in front of you on the roundabout, it's natural that the car in the right-most lane will get to join the roundabout first when there's a gap. Sometimes I get to go well before the car on my left, and slot in neatly in turn after the roundabout. Sometimes there's no advantage, and we both depart at the same time, or the other car accelerates more sharply than me, in which case I slot in behind them, or keep pace with them and wave them in front or see if they do the same for me. Either way, it all flows, civilly.
Until one day you pull out from the right hand lane in the roundabout, and hear an almighty diesel thrash from somewhere behind to your left. It's the knuckle-dragger, usually in a knackered Passat estate or suchlike, taking massive personal offence that another vehicle, correctly using a lane marked for that direction, is about to take his "place" in the flow of traffic. I say "his" because it's never a woman. Even though you're safely and legitimately in front using alternative lanes, they come back at you, being on the verge of driving into the side of you as the road narrows. They blast their horns, the cars rock as they jump around and gesticulate furiously, and the glow of their angry red faces lights up the inside of their car. I've had traffic tailgate me within inches having merged ahead of them with the driver bellowing at his windscreen, or get their front bumper alongside my rear, and drive alongside me on the left, preventing me from taking the correct position in the now-single lane.
In theory the correct thing to do in these situations is avoid escalating it and let the knuckle-dragger have their way. But it all happens over such a short distance (and at < 20mph) that there simply isn't the room or time to let them come past you. It's wrong, but in some cases the adrenaline kicks in when you realise you've got a proper mentalist behind who wants "his" place in the traffic at any cost, and you're going to have to push back, or get pushed into a bollard on a traffic island.
I always try and adhere to the principle that good driving does not rely on the kindness or ability of other drivers, but it's difficult to account for those that deliberately create this 15mph game of chicken when they're already behind you, and thus cannot be controlled. I just don't understand what the hell is wrong with them. It's not a race. It's not a competition. It's not a personal comment on their manhood. If they're in such a damn rush, why are they choosing to sit in a queue of traffic waiting to turn left, instead of using the empty lane to their right which is also marked for straight on?
I can only sympathise with those that have to deal with this reaction when real speeds are involved on flowing A-roads. The rage of these people must turn lethal at times.
I'm currently in the fastest car I've owned and combined with the fact it's old and not worth much I haven't had this problem yet. Did have an X5 squeeze me out but I think that was more the fact He wasn't paying attention.
Just love 90's Japanese turbo's, makes life so easy. The only downside is I now see 300bhp and a wall of torque as a minimum requirement.
Just love 90's Japanese turbo's, makes life so easy. The only downside is I now see 300bhp and a wall of torque as a minimum requirement.
FlauM said:
10 Pence Short said:
On reading your account my opinion would be that you failed to judge the situation correctly and put yourself into a precarious position. To remove yourself from that position you relied on help from other motorists.
On your account that doesn't sound like a fault with the other motorist, but with you.
None of the above excuses the other driver from making suggestions as to your favourite pastime, though what went before perhaps explains the frustration with you that led to it.
Sorry but could you please elaborate on how I misjudged this situation? I had basically completed the overtake when he decided to speed up. How do I know he sped up? Because I saw the puff off black smoke come out of the diesel's exhaust. And could you explain how other motorists helped me? It was his car that I managed to force my way in with. HTH On your account that doesn't sound like a fault with the other motorist, but with you.
None of the above excuses the other driver from making suggestions as to your favourite pastime, though what went before perhaps explains the frustration with you that led to it.
Being overtaken. If a driver is trying to overtake you, maintain a steady course and speed, slowing down if necessary to let the vehicle pass. Never obstruct drivers who wish to pass. Speeding up or driving unpredictably while someone is overtaking you is dangerous. Drop back to maintain a two-second gap if someone overtakes and pulls into the gap in front of you.
The question an officer enquiring into any accident would ask the driver being passed is: Why didn't you slow down to allow the overtaking car to pass?
If speeding up whilst being overtaken, even if they were accelerating before the overtake, can be seen as dangerous driving.
Subject to circumstances, the first thought that would go through my mind in a situation where an overtaking vehicle collides with an oncoming one as it was unable to pull into the left hand lane is that both driver, the overtaking one and the one being overtaken, have some serious questions to answer.
The Overtaking section in the Highway Code is directed to those doing so on a single carriageway (though in the case of 168 it is obviously common sense, never the less). Considering there is a section of the HC dedicated to multi-lane carriageways, this is perhaps the best place to seek advice on using them. A more appropriate section would be 133 - "If you need to change lane, first use your mirrors and if necessary take a quick sideways glance to make sure you will not force another road user to change course or speed. When it is safe to do so, signal to indicate your intentions to other road users and when clear, move over.". Note this advice does not make reference to one lane taking priority over another, rather it makes clear the onus to make the manoeuvre safe being on the person making it. In this scenario, the person who needed to change lanes was not the driver in lane 1, but that in lane 2.
Even if your interpretation was correct and 168 was directed at those on dual carriageways, you would have to show that the driver being overtaken was not simply accelerating away from the roundabout, as he was entitled to. In the case in discussion, the A64 leaving Leeds has a section of dual carriageway 0.2 miles long. At the alternative location, leaving the A1 junction towards Leeds, it is 0.1 miles long. In both cases the dual carriageway terminates to form a single carriageway and the traffic in lane 2 must merge with that in lane 1.
Given those circumstances, it would be perfectly reasonable for a driver in lane 1 to still be accelerating to speed by the time the dual carriageway comes to an end. The story from the person in question is that he was passing traffic doing '30mph' in lane 1. Considering they were on a NSL dual carriageway, it is unlikely they were simply sitting at that speed. More likely is that a train of traffic was accelerating, albeit more slowly than he was.
My own interpretation of events is that the person in lane two could not have anticipated how briskly or otherwise the line of traffic entering the dual carriageway would accelerate. The short length of the dual carriageway and therefore time to judge other traffic's acceleration meant the guy in lane 2 was caught out by the actions of the lead car in lane 1 ahead. Faced with a well signposted and visible merge into lane 1, a bad decision was made to attempt to out-accelerate that lead car in order to gain position on the road. The burden to change lanes safely remained with the car needing to change lanes, that in lane 2. There is no suggestion the car in lane 1 braked or slowed as well as accelerated in order to make the merge unsafe for the car in lane two- the only information we have is that he was accelerating. There is no suggestion the upcoming merge was unsighted or unexpected. Faced with these facts, there was no reason for the car in lane 2 to feel a need to pass that in lane 1 if to attempt to do so would be pushing things.
The folly in his decision to pass the car in lane 1 is only amplified by the fact he was still close enough behind when the OP left the road to gesture towards him.
Even if your interpretation was correct and 168 was directed at those on dual carriageways, you would have to show that the driver being overtaken was not simply accelerating away from the roundabout, as he was entitled to. In the case in discussion, the A64 leaving Leeds has a section of dual carriageway 0.2 miles long. At the alternative location, leaving the A1 junction towards Leeds, it is 0.1 miles long. In both cases the dual carriageway terminates to form a single carriageway and the traffic in lane 2 must merge with that in lane 1.
Given those circumstances, it would be perfectly reasonable for a driver in lane 1 to still be accelerating to speed by the time the dual carriageway comes to an end. The story from the person in question is that he was passing traffic doing '30mph' in lane 1. Considering they were on a NSL dual carriageway, it is unlikely they were simply sitting at that speed. More likely is that a train of traffic was accelerating, albeit more slowly than he was.
My own interpretation of events is that the person in lane two could not have anticipated how briskly or otherwise the line of traffic entering the dual carriageway would accelerate. The short length of the dual carriageway and therefore time to judge other traffic's acceleration meant the guy in lane 2 was caught out by the actions of the lead car in lane 1 ahead. Faced with a well signposted and visible merge into lane 1, a bad decision was made to attempt to out-accelerate that lead car in order to gain position on the road. The burden to change lanes safely remained with the car needing to change lanes, that in lane 2. There is no suggestion the car in lane 1 braked or slowed as well as accelerated in order to make the merge unsafe for the car in lane two- the only information we have is that he was accelerating. There is no suggestion the upcoming merge was unsighted or unexpected. Faced with these facts, there was no reason for the car in lane 2 to feel a need to pass that in lane 1 if to attempt to do so would be pushing things.
The folly in his decision to pass the car in lane 1 is only amplified by the fact he was still close enough behind when the OP left the road to gesture towards him.
Edited by 10 Pence Short on Sunday 19th August 18:18
You think you guys have trouble...I get stuck behind these types daily on the A449 or the Kiddy to Droitwich road.
Having a '89 998cc mini means a lot of planning to make progress is needed. I can't simply pull out and give it the beans because i have very few beans to hand out, unless the speeds are knocking around low enough so i can grab down to third gear.
People doing an indicated 45 (more like 35 knowing my speedo) at 2am on a Sunday night or on a clean sunny day its always the same.
Its so bad i know the places to hang back and slingshot my way past them. Had a few people speed up and even swerve into the middle of the road.
Only once have i had a kind man in a disco indicate to let me past.
Suppose people dont expect to see me flying past in a mini and it gets up their skirts?
Having a '89 998cc mini means a lot of planning to make progress is needed. I can't simply pull out and give it the beans because i have very few beans to hand out, unless the speeds are knocking around low enough so i can grab down to third gear.
People doing an indicated 45 (more like 35 knowing my speedo) at 2am on a Sunday night or on a clean sunny day its always the same.
Its so bad i know the places to hang back and slingshot my way past them. Had a few people speed up and even swerve into the middle of the road.
Only once have i had a kind man in a disco indicate to let me past.
Suppose people dont expect to see me flying past in a mini and it gets up their skirts?
Funnily enough I though of this thread as a surprisingly ugly lady attempted a surprisingly interesting overtake into an unsighted right-hander on a change up to NSL. I was at WoT when she committed the first time and immediately eased off. She wisely decided to come back in for the corner and I helped her past on the next straight. She didn't really get on with it after that and I was able to see over the next ten miles or so how she took on a number of interesting overtakes and one extremely interesting line around a roundabout.
Some people it's best to help out as they're going to need all the help they can get keeping it shiny side up.
Some people it's best to help out as they're going to need all the help they can get keeping it shiny side up.
Zoobeef said:
I catch em by supprise in the noble. Let them think your happy trundling behind then bam! I'm past looking at the rage in their eyes 
Same in the E63, they're too busy looking skyward for the low flying Spitfire they can hear and then it's too late - they've been woomped.You need a faster car ...
Had a similar event yesterday. Woman in a 206 doing 35 round every bend, pressing the brake repeatedly. Then speeding up on the straights. She generated a sizable queue behind her. I went for an overtake on a straight and she wasn't having it. Managed to get past but it took longer than it should. I reckon that this was a daily thing for her. Not being happy that other cars were looking to overtake all the time because she was totally lacking in the knowledge of how to drive round corners.
Corpulent Tosser said:
The car driver accelerating to match your speed was acting like a knob and dangerously, however if he was up to 80mph surely the obvious thing to do was slow down and slot in behind him.
I agree the TT Drive was being a numpty, may have been playing games, acting the fool or whatever but a % age of drivers are like that, and we have to factor in all sorts of less likely behaviours. Or they may not have noticed and been accelerating because they simply felt like it. Random possibilities should be in the mind of the overtaker.I was on a very quiet motorway in the summer in France, approaching a car that was swerving a good 2 meters from left to right for over 10 KM at a relatively slow 70 to 80 Kmh. I thought they were drunk. When they exited at the next toll I pulled up alongside and asked what they were playing at. He said the road was wide and I had plenty of space to go around him ! That he was not drunk at all (I believed him), and that he was a bee keeper and was driving slowly and swerving to avoid killing bees because the motorway went through an area of fine flora and insect life and if I had any sense I would have known that !!! I became the very definition of speechless.
This thread makes me pretty narked just reading it; the standards of driving are dropping, but that people intentionally drive dangerously, as described, is surely a new low ...
Quick question, for a section59 you need an independent witness as well?Another quick question for the BiB on here; what would the police do if you were to report an incident like this? Anything? Give you a HORT1 for your troubles? Nothing at all?
Oli.
hora said:
julianc said:
Jasandjules said:
I hope you got the license plate and can report him to plod. That's got to be dangerous driving.
I agree, I understand that this is classed as 'dangerous driving'.Oli.
I used to get a few people trying it when I'm out in the Cerb! (Very foolish!)
I've recently found a new way to stop them even trying. Instead of keeping in top gear, or dropping down one, I drop into 3rd gear and spin the wheels as I overtake.
This has three effects
1)They forget about speeding up!
2)They get deafened
3)Th look on their faces is priceless!
I've recently found a new way to stop them even trying. Instead of keeping in top gear, or dropping down one, I drop into 3rd gear and spin the wheels as I overtake.
This has three effects
1)They forget about speeding up!
2)They get deafened
3)Th look on their faces is priceless!
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