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matrignano

Original Poster:

499 posts

79 months

[news] 
Tuesday 21st August 2012 quote quote all
I received a Fixed Penalty Notice yesterday (3 points + £60 fine) for allegedly using a mobile phone while driving.

Deep down I know that my best option is very likely to accept the FPN and take it on my chin, but I was honestly not using my phone and I think the police officer made a few mistakes in the process. I want to check with the wider PH knowledge-base whether I have any realistic chance of arguing (successfully) my case in court.

So here goes:
I was stopped at a set of traffic lights, my phone was resting on my lap. I was fiddling with my sunglasses, and my hands where above my lap region (so in the near vicinity of my phone). I was looking down at the sunglasses while fiddling, so from the outside it could have looked like I was using/reading my phone.

A police motorcycle officer came up from behind and stopped by my front nearside wheel, he glanced at the cabin and then looked away, but he must have thought he saw something, so he did a double take and looked back into the cabin, bending down a bit more to try and get a better look. By that second time he looked into the cabin, I had moved my hands away from my lap and therefore from my phone. My car is quite low so I'd question how good a view he could have had of my lap area, especially since he was sitting on his back on the far side/nearside.
(does "reasonable doubt" apply here? the fact that he needed to do a double take, means he wasn't sure first time he looked?)
At this stage a second officer arrived on his bike and pulled over further ahead of us. The 2nd officer arrived a good few seconds after the 1st one, so he can't have seen anything and he can't possibly corroborate what the 1st officer thinks he saw.

Officer 1 then turned his lights on, asked me to pull over, and immediately started writing the PCN. No questions asked, didn't allow me the chance to explain what he thought he'd seen. Judge, jury and executioner!

1st thing I would like to question is, the officer couldn't and didn't get a good look into my cabin, and therefore I'd argue his judgement isn't reliable enough to constitute evidence.
Assuming by phone company is forthcoming, I am happy to provide the court all sorts of records stating I wasn't making or receiving a call, SMS/MMS, or email before, during and after the time of the alleged offence.
It's my word against his (unless 2nd officer perjures himself and corroborates 1st officer's story - he didn't see anything), do I have a leg to stand on?

The police officer (still the 1st one, 2nd officer never intervened in the discussion or stood close enough to hear our conversation) did a few more dodgy things, I'd like to know whether they can be considered misconduct/malpractice, and help me get the case thrown off:
- Officer asked for my phone's IMEI number. I refused on grounds the phone is my company's and I don't feel comfortable giving away those details. Officer threatened that he had the right to confiscate my phone as evidence? I demanded to see relevant code/law/text that covered what he had stated. He refused. I asked again, and still he wasn't forthcoming. Isn't he obliged to let me read the relevant text??
- When presented with FPN, I told officer that I wasn't going to acknowledge the notice on the spot, as I wanted to consider my options. He then said I had to surrender my licence to a police station within 7 days. I asked if the police has the appropriate authority to withhold my foreign (EU) issued licence. He said they can. I checked last night and, as I thought, they can't!
- Police officer told me that if case goes to court, I can pay up to £2,500 fine. Now I checked, and it seems that that ceiling only applies to professional drivers, e.g. lorry drivers. A £1,000 max applies in my case. Again, he gave me a wrong piece of information.
- He kept referring to "the offence", as opposed to "alleged offence". It pissed me off!

Again, all the above are his word against mine, I didn't have any witnesses and didn't think of recording the conversation. There is also the added danger that the 2nd officer might confirmed 1st officer's story, although he didn't listen in!

Any glimpse of hope?

supertouring

967 posts

102 months

[news] 
Tuesday 21st August 2012 quote quote all
matrignano said:
I was stopped at a set of traffic lights, my phone was resting on my lap.
I think I read enough. Good luck with that.

Meoricin

2,316 posts

38 months

[news] 
Tuesday 21st August 2012 quote quote all
Why would you keep your phone on your lap unless you were using it?

Hugo a Gogo

15,150 posts

102 months

[news] 
Tuesday 21st August 2012 quote quote all
re. the licence: it's UN law, unbelievably. If you are leaving the country they have to give it back

ben5732

323 posts

25 months

[news] 
Tuesday 21st August 2012 quote quote all
Game over.

Rather unlucky really. But why was your phone in your lap if you ain't using it?
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Isaac Hunt

6,774 posts

80 months

[news] 
Tuesday 21st August 2012 quote quote all
Meoricin said:
Why would you keep your phone on your lap unless you were using it?
Maybe he had it on vibrate and liked the sensation.


Defcon5

4,056 posts

60 months

[news] 
Tuesday 21st August 2012 quote quote all
Meoricin said:
Why would you keep your phone on your lap unless you were using it?
This

ben5732

323 posts

25 months

[news] 
Tuesday 21st August 2012 quote quote all
Isaac Hunt said:
Maybe he had it on vibrate and liked the sensation.
Perhaps he should purchase one of them cars with vibrating seats?...

matrignano

Original Poster:

499 posts

79 months

[news] 
Tuesday 21st August 2012 quote quote all
Meoricin said:
Why would you keep your phone on your lap unless you were using it?
Cause the clock in my car is all wrong, so I need to keep am eye on the phone's clock to know what time it is (was running late for a meeting).. I don't wear a watch since it was stolen a while back.


Regarding surrendering my licence, here is where I read it doesn't apply to foreign licences: Www.avonandsomerset.police.uk/information/InfoCent...

V8LM

1,920 posts

78 months

[news] 
Tuesday 21st August 2012 quote quote all
matrignano said:
Cause the clock in my car is all wrong, so I need to keep am eye on the phone's clock to know what time it is (was running late for a meeting).. I don't wear a watch since it was stolen a while back.


Regarding surrendering my licence, here is where I read it doesn't apply to foreign licences: Www.avonandsomerset.police.uk/information/InfoCent...
Thus you are using your phone n'est pas?

Pothole

18,069 posts

151 months

[news] 
Tuesday 21st August 2012 quote quote all
matrignano said:
Meoricin said:
Why would you keep your phone on your lap unless you were using it?
Cause the clock in my car is all wrong, so I need to keep am eye on the phone's clock to know what time it is (was running late for a meeting).. I don't wear a watch since it was stolen a while back.
So you look down into your lap to see the time? You could buy a cheap watch every time you get petrol. Looking down into your lap could make you knock me off my motorcycle and kill me. Take it on the chin, adjust the clock in your car, leave earlier and/or buy a watch. You fool.

carreauchompeur

10,610 posts

73 months

[news] 
Tuesday 21st August 2012 quote quote all
...and surely, if you're already on your way, then it doesn't matter what time it is- Because you'd be making maximum progress for the conditions and speed limit and would get there ASAP!

Furry Exocet

1,868 posts

50 months

[news] 
Tuesday 21st August 2012 quote quote all
Do you expect the Police to carry around Law books so that you can read up on all the legislation??

I think as soon as you inform the Magistrates that the phone was on your lap so you can use it as a clock, its going to be 3 points, at least £60 fine and then £15 victim surcharge, plus any costs that the CPS throw in.

I'm going to guess that to use your clock you need to handle the phone in some way? I know on my brand new smartphone I do, as the screen is blank until I hit a button.

As for seizing the phone, it can be done, I believe it would be Section 19 of PACE. Its not normally done for simple traffic offences.

The production of the licence is part of the ticket, EU licences can now be endorsed as they just create a ghost UK licence.

DSM2

3,624 posts

69 months

[news] 
Tuesday 21st August 2012 quote quote all
You'd be better paying up and forgetting about it. Go to court and you'll be up against two officers who won't think twice about saying whatever they need to to get a conviction, true or not.

The court will believe what they hear, true or not, and you'll pay more.

Regard it as a tax and redress the balance elsewhere. It's not difficult.

Caulkhead

4,938 posts

26 months

[news] 
Tuesday 21st August 2012 quote quote all
It is possible to be wrongly accused, I was pootling along the seafront at about 15mph having taken the dog for a swim and happened to be scratching my ear when a police officer bellowed through the open window something about phones. I stopped dead and jumped out. He was convinced I was on the phone until I showed him there was no phone in the car or on me.

Having said all that, I don't believe your reason for having your phone on your lap so I doubt the court will either.

gavgavgav

1,264 posts

98 months

[news] 
Tuesday 21st August 2012 quote quote all
If you were not using your phone, the IMEI number would show that lack of usage when they do a check. Why else would you not give that to them?

Breadvan72

10,225 posts

32 months

[news] 
Tuesday 21st August 2012 quote quote all
I can already see the magistrates' eyes rolling as they listen to the OP tell his tale about "having the phone on my lap to tell the time". Sadly, popcorn is rarely available at court houses.


98elise

3,167 posts

30 months

[news] 
Tuesday 21st August 2012 quote quote all
You failed the attitude test.

MagicalTrevor

4,801 posts

98 months

[news] 
Tuesday 21st August 2012 quote quote all
I think you need to pay the FPN.

V8LM

1,920 posts

78 months

[news] 
Tuesday 21st August 2012 quote quote all
gavgavgav said:
If you were not using your phone, the IMEI number would show that lack of usage when they do a check. Why else would you not give that to them?
You don't need to be 'on' the phone to be using it, so matters not.

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