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Mill Wheel

5,533 posts

83 months

[news] 
Thursday 4th October 2012 quote quote all
daz3210 said:
I just watched the documentary on what has been alleged.

Based on what aired nothing has been proven as such, but what can be gained from the accusations?

Can any claim be made on his estate for compensation?
The victims CAN claim for compensation, and it is NOT time barred.

They should address their complaint to the Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority, and the standard of evidence required to succeed is lower than any court.
In a lot of cases, a claim has succeeded even when a court case has failed to convict a perpetrator... and of course in cases where the perpetrator has never been found.
The money comes from the tax payer, and not the perpetrator or their estate, and the average payout from the CICA is £5000.

If you doubt this you should search their website, and google for reported cases.

Here is grist to your mill... see the results of an FOI request here... http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/reason_for_a...
For some reason it takes me to the bottom of the page - scroll up and read it from the start.

Mill Wheel

5,533 posts

83 months

[news] 
Thursday 4th October 2012 quote quote all
Derek Smith said:
Back to topic: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-19820...

An explanation as to how one victim at least felt.
Why do victims withdraw their complaints?

Because the ordeal they go through during questioning is horrifying for many.
The questions asked are extremely personal and upsetting to a person that is a genuine victim, no matter how sensitively the police try to handle it.

The police HAVE to obtain certain information in order to make the charge stick and stand any chance of getting it to court.

As a result they HAVE to ask; if the victim had any previous sexual encounters, when they first had consensual sex before or subsequently, has it caused them any problems, what their sexual preferences are, what sexual acts were committed upon them, had they encouraged them in any way, as well as detailed descriptions of the perpetrators features.
In some cases their close relatives might be asked similarly detailed questions to support their claims - and in many cases they may not have shared their story with anyone.

They then face the prospect of reliving and repeating this in court, and having their own character called into question by the defendant's solicitor or barrister.

Most of you thankfully will have no idea of any of this - you only get to find out if you are asking the questions, or have been asked them.
The detail goes way beyond what your GP might ask during a consultation, and there is a lot more at stake.

I found out the hard way - I was accused (falsely) of a sexual assault - alleged to have taken place 30 years before the allegations were made!
Despite this, I am quite certain that historic allegations SHOULD be investigated, and tested in court.

Because I was innocent, I initially didn't want the hassle and worry of going to court - but when the CPS decided No Further Action was required, I didn't feel vindicated - and my accuser who chose to put up with those same questions I was asked to further her own agenda, is getting on with her life with no consequences (yet), while my family and friends look on amazed that the lies she told have not been investigated "because it doesn't look good to hassle (question) a victim!"

This "victim" works for the Probation Service as a senior probation officer, and should have known better than to tell lies, and hinder the police in their investigations (it took them 7 months to find me, yet she knew all the time where I was and how to find me!).

I hope you are starting to see things in a different light regarding why victims DON'T like to come forward when they have been wronged.

agtlaw

3,063 posts

93 months

[news] 
Thursday 4th October 2012 quote quote all
Breadvan72 said:
It is of course wrong to judge by appearances, but Saville looked like Central Casting's ideal kiddyfiddler. My pervy ex-client, mentioned above, also looked like everyone's standard idea of a pederast.
Savile's decision to dress like a paedophile was one of the most cunning double bluffs ever.

jith

2,120 posts

102 months

[news] 
Thursday 4th October 2012 quote quote all
Derek Smith said:
Back to topic: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-19820...

An explanation as to how one victim at least felt.
Alleged victim Derek. Nothing has been proven. Once a copper, always a copper, eh?

Jimmy Saville had a house in Glencoe just up the road from my climbing doss. I spent almost every weekend for many years up there, and he was simply treated as one of the community. Always polite, kind, friendly and very funny, and not once did I see the slightest sign of him letching at young girls, or anyone else for that matter.

Now that is not conjecture or some unfounded rumour, that is straight from the horses mouth from personal experience.

Let's try and keep it that way and be objective and observe the fast disappearing concept of innocent until proven guilty.

If he is guilty of this, I want to see hard evidence and I will be absolutely astounded if this is the case.

J

daz3210

Original Poster:

5,000 posts

127 months

[news] 
Thursday 4th October 2012 quote quote all
The problem that I see is that there are always two sides to every story.

The alleged victims have given theirs, now we have to wait until....... oh wait, we have a problem, he can't give his side.

It seems strange to me that there are so many coming forward now, but yet there are suggestions that there were complaints while he was alive too. Why would no one investigate the claims while he was still alive and able to argue back. Yes, he was 'larger than life', but don't the press of this country love a good story.


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Dave Hedgehog

7,331 posts

91 months

[news] 
Thursday 4th October 2012 quote quote all
Dear Jim,

Please could you fix it for the girl in my class who I really fancy to come on holiday with me.

Yours sincerely,

Jeremy Forrest, 30.

decadence

502 posts

45 months

[news] 
Thursday 4th October 2012 quote quote all
RtdRacer said:
decadence said:
Its amazing isn't it?
When its a Knighted White bloke of 'legend' status, we await further evidence in light of these accusations.....
But when its several Asian men of Pakistani origin we are ready en-masse to claim its something to do with 'their culture' and every middle aged Asian man is perceived to be a person hunting 'cheap white meat'....

What i've realised recently is that we hate child abusers if they 'have them too young' (seems over 13 is fair game) or if they arent white blokes............
I swear there was idiots who believed Asian men invented child abuse...truth is its our society thats to blame for not looking after our kids!
But that's simply not true. Part of the furore caused by the recent Rochdale case was that they were *not* white men - where before paedophiles had been perceived to be in general nearly always men, and nearly always white. I don't think there a general perception of middle aged asian men hunting white meat. I think there is a change in perception that 'it might not only be white men'. Very different.

And there's another fundamental difference in the two cases. One has been proven in a court of law. The other one is only just starting to emerge into the light.
It was the irresponsible reporting of the Red tops i was referencing, and a certain Sir Jack Straw who very publicly stated "Asian men finding cheap white meat"....

My thoughts are thus:
its very hard to stop or change a Paedophiles 'choices', there will always be these abusers in society....what is 'easier' surly is to at least try to protect the children from these people.
On topic quite why it seems Jimmy was allowed to have under-age 'fans' in his changing room alone at all (even for HIS protection against accusations) is really beyond me.....
this is claimed by several staffers at the BBC...

decadence

502 posts

45 months

[news] 
Thursday 4th October 2012 quote quote all
daz3210 said:
The problem that I see is that there are always two sides to every story.

The alleged victims have given theirs, now we have to wait until....... oh wait, we have a problem, he can't give his side.

It seems strange to me that there are so many coming forward now, but yet there are suggestions that there were complaints while he was alive too. Why would no one investigate the claims while he was still alive and able to argue back. Yes, he was 'larger than life', but don't the press of this country love a good story.
Yes but when some of that press is Murdoch owned....you can chose what to print and what to hide..

daz3210

Original Poster:

5,000 posts

127 months

[news] 
Thursday 4th October 2012 quote quote all
decadence said:
On topic quite why it seems Jimmy was allowed to have under-age 'fans' in his changing room alone at all (even for HIS protection against accusations) is really beyond me.....
this is claimed by several staffers at the BBC...
But when did this happen?

In years gone by there was nothing thought about such things. Pedophilia and homosexuality almost certainly existed, but was not talked about quite so openly. Child Protection Policies that sporting clubs have now were unheard of. It basically wasn't thought of as a problem I guess.

25 years since I played a sport that I still play. Back then after a game we went to changing rooms and got showered and changed. Adults and kids mixed freely. Now the rules are oh so different. Men and boys are supposed to use separate facilities (but this does prove difficult sometimes with the nature of some older facilities).


JustinP1

11,512 posts

117 months

[news] 
Thursday 4th October 2012 quote quote all
As above.

I remember 20 years ago being 12, 13, 14 and there being a PE teacher who seemed to always have a reason to look into the boys showers. It was so blatant at the time we used to joke about it.

Now, we look back and realise that it wasn't so much of a joke because the zeitgeist around paedophilia is well known and accepted. If that happened *now* I am quite sure that boys would be telling parents and there would be formal complaints.


Again, 12 years ago, or whenever it was, as a student, I happened to be working in 'the' PC World where Gary Glitter brought in his laptop for repair. Not only was he so blaze about it that he thought nothing of not deleting/moving what I heard from the viewers mouth were sickening and without doubt illegal but, if it were not for a senior manager totally ignoring the advice he was given, the police would never have been informed.

Thankfully - this kind of stuff is a lot more difficult to cover up now. But for me, it is entirely plausible that a 'blind eye' could have been offered 30 years ago by everyone around him, while people thought it was a 'bit funny' but pretended not to realise.

Wacky Racer

22,439 posts

134 months

[news] 
Thursday 4th October 2012 quote quote all
Mill Wheel said:
daz3210 said:
I just watched the documentary on what has been alleged.

Based on what aired nothing has been proven as such, but what can be gained from the accusations?

Can any claim be made on his estate for compensation?
The victims CAN claim for compensation, and it is NOT time barred.

They should address their complaint to the Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority, and the standard of evidence required to succeed is lower than any court.
In a lot of cases, a claim has succeeded even when a court case has failed to convict a perpetrator... and of course in cases where the perpetrator has never been found.
The money comes from the tax payer, and not the perpetrator or their estate, and the average payout from the CICA is £5000.
No doubt another 20 "victims" will come out of the woodwork in the next four weeks.....

I am of the opinion some of the claims are true though, always thought he had a dark side....

Breadvan72

19,938 posts

50 months

[news] 
Thursday 4th October 2012 quote quote all
daz3210 said:
In years gone by .... Pedophilia [sic] and homosexuality almost certainly existed....
You don't say! Really, Daz, you do come up with some prize ones!

daz3210

Original Poster:

5,000 posts

127 months

[news] 
Thursday 4th October 2012 quote quote all
Breadvan72 said:
daz3210 said:
In years gone by .... Pedophilia [sic] and homosexuality almost certainly existed....
You don't say! Really, Daz, you do come up with some prize ones!
.... but it wasn't spoken about so openly!

Breadvan72

19,938 posts

50 months

[news] 
Thursday 4th October 2012 quote quote all
You have perhaps led a sheltered life.

mdglen

61 posts

49 months

[news] 
Thursday 4th October 2012 quote quote all
simoid said:
What has changed now he's been dead a while confused
Simple, the dead can't sue for libel.

You can say anything you want about Jimmy now he's dead. And this bks about the press not wanting to harm his charities is just that, bks. When have the press cared about anything apart from selling more newspapers.

daz3210

Original Poster:

5,000 posts

127 months

[news] 
Thursday 4th October 2012 quote quote all
Breadvan72 said:
You have perhaps led a sheltered life.
Perhaps, but then so must my parents.

I am told (but I don't think I am not old enough to remember) that at one point in time homosexuality was illegal. Granted pedophilia still is, but I do not remember it being talked about quite so much. My parents had photographs taken (quite innocently) of me sitting on a potty, in the bath etc at around 12 months old. Back then that was not looked upon as anything bad. Imagine taking such photographs for printing these days. They were part of my childhood, but were destroyed some years ago, lest they be deemed illegal.

I guess it is a sad fact of society that these days those that mean harm/offence impact greatly on those who do not. There was a time when I would be allowed not to like a person of different skin colour for no other reason than we did not get on, today I would be called racist. There was a time when I would have been allowed not to like a person who had a preference for the same sex simply because we had a disagreement about some neighbourly matter, these days I would be homophobic. God forbid if I ever wanted to take photographs of my own children in anything less than full state of dress - the world would immediately scream pedophile without consideration that it could be entirely innocent.

Derek Smith

20,778 posts

135 months

[news] 
Thursday 4th October 2012 quote quote all
Mill Wheel said:
Why do victims withdraw their complaints?
I ran an ID parade for an 18-year-old rape victim (which was not required as we had ample DNA but the defence demanded it and in those days they pulled the strings). As soon as she saw the offender (we knew from DNA) she collapsed and remained semi-comatose for all but seven minutes, rolled up into the foetal position.

There was no defence as such but the bloke pleaded NG in the hope that the traumatised victim, then 19, would not return from Germany to give evidence. She proved to have some real bottle and came back. She asked for a screen between her and her attacker and the court took 90 minutes of tense discussion to decide.

She gave her evidence and then the defence tried to block the showing of the video. This was refused. The plea was then changed to guilty and the offender had some time taken off his sentence in consideration of his generous gesture.

But as you say, the kid had to live through the trauma of a whole series of horrendous sexual assaults, repeating it to strangers and the offender.

It is a wonder that any such victims continue with their complaints.

As someone said, once a copper always a copper. The reason being, of course, the absolutely horrible things you have to see and the people you have to deal with.

The kid could have pulled out at any time, and who could have blamed her, yet this 19-year-old put getting on with her life on hold. Whether it was to ensure that, for a short time at least, he would be unable to attack other women, or on the less likely (according to the SIO) alternative of revenge I don't know but good on her.

My concern was that if I ever came across someone offending, or this bloke (as I, like the victim, will never forget his face) I'd lose it. I'm a mild sort of bloke but I really fear that I would lose my temper and really lay into the offender. The other thing is that I hope i will lose my temper and really lay into the offender.

If you could have seen him and his manner you'd feel exactly the same way.

The smug brief as well, making the girl go through with the parade despite it being of no evidential value whatsoever. He needs to watch out.

Breadvan72

19,938 posts

50 months

[news] 
Thursday 4th October 2012 quote quote all
Daz, do not believe in tabloid tosh. There is nothing illegal about ordinary photographs of your children undressed, and your parents were daft to destroy old family photos.

You are perfectly at liberty to dislike anyone because of what they say and do, as that has nothing to do with their involuntary characteristic such as race or sexual orientation.

Homosexuality was criminalised in the UK until the 1960s. That law caused much injustice. It is still criminalised in some less developed countries.

daz3210

Original Poster:

5,000 posts

127 months

[news] 
Thursday 4th October 2012 quote quote all
Breadvan72 said:
Daz, do not believe in tabloid tosh. There is nothing illegal about ordinary photographs of your children undressed, and your parents were daft to destroy old family photos.


There was only one reason. Fear. OK, you may not get convicted, but lets just say mud sticks even if not convicted, something my folks were not prepared to risk.

Breadvan72 said:
You are perfectly at liberty to dislike anyone because of what they say and do, as that has nothing to do with their involuntary characteristic such as race or sexual orientation.
Oh I wish I could believe you. I actually can speak with confidence that this is not always the case, since I have been at the receiving end of racial accusations. Thankfully I was able to head it off thanks to good friends of the same culture as the accuser.

Breadvan72 said:
Homosexuality was criminalised in the UK until the 1960s. That law caused much injustice. It is still criminalised in some less developed countries.
And hence it was hidden and not talked about in times gone by. I used to know a couple who had to flea from Ireland, since they were 'outed' as lovers and from then on were in danger. We are far more tolerant these days, to the point where I have had workmates who are openly 'gay'. My own personal thoughts have been made clear to them, I don't mind, provided their beliefs/feelings are not pushed onto me. In fact, some of the biggest comedy moments at work have been as a result of such openness.


JustinP1

11,512 posts

117 months

[news] 
Thursday 4th October 2012 quote quote all
Breadvan72 said:
Daz, do not believe in tabloid tosh. There is nothing illegal about ordinary photographs of your children undressed, and your parents were daft to destroy old family photos.

You are perfectly at liberty to dislike anyone because of what they say and do, as that has nothing to do with their involuntary characteristic such as race or sexual orientation.

Homosexuality was criminalised in the UK until the 1960s. That law caused much injustice. It is still criminalised in some less developed countries.
I think what Daz is highlighting is that 20-30 years ago whist paedophilia existed, there was not the widespread knowledge there is now.

In fact, IMHO the ruckus surrounding the high profile cases such as Gary Glitter has made much of society overthink issues - Daz's parents for one.

Part of what my company does is record children singing, in schools. Just audio. On one occasion - I kid you not - a was asked, and was asked to put in writing for our protection procedure about who and how many people would be listening to the children's voices while the files were edited, and to confirm all files would be deleted to ensure that they didn't find their way into the hands of a paedophile.

Just to confirm, these are audio files of singing nursery rhymes...
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