Discussion
Breadvan72 said:
Is this thread Trollage, or fer real? Hard to say. My Parrot is broken, as usual.
A Mynah Bird might be more appropriate. As with a previous poster, I too have a pessimistic view of any good outcome. As a parent and grand-parent that makes me angry, but I would not want to step onto that greasy incline.Streaky
9mm said:
They are not reliable. That's a fact.
How would you deal with the consequences of say, damaging the mental health of the innocent person to whom you administered this mythical drug? A bit of compo and a public apology? I bet Timothy Evans is delighted with his pardon!
What sort of 'substantial procedures' would you propose? I'd be particularly interested in what procedures you think should be followed that would allow the use of drugs on the person presently under arrest.
I would refer you to my earlier comment..How would you deal with the consequences of say, damaging the mental health of the innocent person to whom you administered this mythical drug? A bit of compo and a public apology? I bet Timothy Evans is delighted with his pardon!
What sort of 'substantial procedures' would you propose? I'd be particularly interested in what procedures you think should be followed that would allow the use of drugs on the person presently under arrest.
Daz3210 said:
Maybe a truth drug would be acceptable in those circumstances providing it did not have long lasting side effects.
The procedure I was thinking of was along the lines of only with some kind of court order after a review of the evidence thus far gained. (Would also in these circumstances have to be done quickly).9mm said:
daz3210 said:
There is a maybe in my mind.
They may or may not be reliable, but if there is a chance of finding the kiddie alive, they should (IMHO) be an option. Finding the kiddie is the primary objective to me. You can deal with the consequences of using the stuff later. OK, if there is an alternative then consider the alternative also.
So basically if there is a chance of it giving a leg up in the search it should be something that could be considered surely. (Though maybe only after substantial procedures have been followed)
They are not reliable. That's a fact. They may or may not be reliable, but if there is a chance of finding the kiddie alive, they should (IMHO) be an option. Finding the kiddie is the primary objective to me. You can deal with the consequences of using the stuff later. OK, if there is an alternative then consider the alternative also.
So basically if there is a chance of it giving a leg up in the search it should be something that could be considered surely. (Though maybe only after substantial procedures have been followed)
How would you deal with the consequences of say, damaging the mental health of the innocent person to whom you administered this mythical drug? A bit of compo and a public apology? I bet Timothy Evans is delighted with his pardon!
What sort of 'substantial procedures' would you propose? I'd be particularly interested in what procedures you think should be followed that would allow the use of drugs on the person presently under arrest.
Michael Sheen is an ex-serviceman radicalised to Islam who makes a video showing a fashioned nuclear bomb in three nondescript locations and shows that he has the materials and knowhow needed from his sources.
He send the video, then allows himself to be captured. They ask him, interrogate him, keep him awake, and then the slippery slope begins. And when it starts, then next 'step' is only a minor moral 'greater good' argument away.
It was really good, and did make me think in a way that I had not before, and did wonder if similar types of things have happened somewhere.
"Battle of Algiers" is the best film that I know of on the moral dilemmas facing the State in a "ticking bomb" scenario.
PS: http://www.dilemna.info/index.php
PS: http://www.dilemna.info/index.php
ikarl said:
Remember the guy that was accused of killing Joanna Yeates? He was innocent of her murder but was completely ripped apart by the press and the public for looking weird and obviously being a nutter 
+1People earnestly suggesting torture or "truth drugging" (which, if it actually exists - I thought it was science fiction, is the same thing as torture) is truly depressing.
Once you establish a precedence for dispensing with due process you've obliterated the sanctity of it completely.
rev-erend said:
The BBC or their source have not helped.
First it was a grey van, then a white van then a blue range rover.
You can blame our culture for that really. People demand news and constant updates. Gone are the days where the 6 or 10 o'clock news was when you got updated on current events, nowadays whenever the media are starved of actual facts they seem to fill in the blanks with more and more damaging conjecture and speculation.First it was a grey van, then a white van then a blue range rover.
May have been said on here or the other threads already, but bear in mind that Brady never (really) gave up the location of all the bodies* from his crimes, so what's to say the same wouldn't occur here?
*NB: OK, there's an assumption that it's a body and not a small child that they're now looking for.
*NB: OK, there's an assumption that it's a body and not a small child that they're now looking for.
Breadvan72 said:
"Battle of Algiers" is the best film that I know of on the moral dilemmas facing the State in a "ticking bomb" scenario.
Excellent film, and indeed an excellent portrayal of the descent into barbary by both sides. I've been to Ali le Pointes house in the Casbah (or the house where his used to be) and also been in the military museum in Algiers where the story of the 'troubles' is obviously depicted from the Algerian side; the atrocities in Constantine, the Maison de Torture, how the ALN managed to live and operate in the field (very much like the Taliban/VietCong etc)... Makes the US rendition flights / 'torture' scandals and so on almost civilised in comparison.Breadvan72 said:
"Battle of Algiers" is the best film that I know of on the moral dilemmas facing the State in a "ticking bomb" scenario.
PS: http://www.dile.......
Not a helpful link, just delete it.PS: http://www.dile.......
Durzel - "truth drugs" are not science fiction. There are a number of chemical compounds ("drugs") that, applied individually or in combination, render the subject into a state in which they become significantly more responsive than usual to careful questioning.
Such chemical techniques are often used (where they are used) in combination with psychological techniques, and, in some situations, physical stimulus (aka 'pain').
They can be highly effective, but do need great experience in using and in the associated questioning.
However, memories can be fragile, forgotten and fungible, and can be falsely held, and all states can be actively reinforced by the subject and others. That's where the skill of the interrogator comes in, to tell truth from lie; because of course, sometimes it is not possible to verify a story, whether it is extracted by normal or other means.
Streaky
Such chemical techniques are often used (where they are used) in combination with psychological techniques, and, in some situations, physical stimulus (aka 'pain').
They can be highly effective, but do need great experience in using and in the associated questioning.
However, memories can be fragile, forgotten and fungible, and can be falsely held, and all states can be actively reinforced by the subject and others. That's where the skill of the interrogator comes in, to tell truth from lie; because of course, sometimes it is not possible to verify a story, whether it is extracted by normal or other means.
Streaky
ikarl said:
Remember the guy that was accused of killing Joanna Yeates? He was innocent of her murder but was completely ripped apart by the press and the public for looking weird and obviously being a nutter
I wonder how long some of the members of this site would have tortured him for before they believed him. He'd probably be dead right now.Poor kid has cerebral palsy and needs daily medication for pain relief. That's terrible.
Of course, we're only fed stuff the press give us but like a good hollywood film script....when they knew he was a suspect, could the Police not of followed him to see if he would lead them to her?
To be fair, they've thrown every resource at this case.
Let's just hope like the last case of missing kid (Tia Sharp) she's not found dead in the attic of a family members house.
I can't see her being found alive.
Terrible story.
Of course, we're only fed stuff the press give us but like a good hollywood film script....when they knew he was a suspect, could the Police not of followed him to see if he would lead them to her?
To be fair, they've thrown every resource at this case.
Let's just hope like the last case of missing kid (Tia Sharp) she's not found dead in the attic of a family members house.
I can't see her being found alive.
Terrible story.
Breadvan72 said:
No. Would you like a hat?
Putting a link to a page about the correct spelling of Dilemma is hardly a useful addition to a thread with one of the most serious subjects imaginable.I had read your posts previously with respect to your knowledge.
Your response has just lost that.
streaky said:
Durzel - "truth drugs" are not science fiction. There are a number of chemical compounds ("drugs") that, applied individually or in combination, render the subject into a state in which they become significantly more responsive than usual to careful questioning.
Such chemical techniques are often used (where they are used) in combination with psychological techniques, and, in some situations, physical stimulus (aka 'pain').
They can be highly effective, but do need great experience in using and in the associated questioning.
However, memories can be fragile, forgotten and fungible, and can be falsely held, and all states can be actively reinforced by the subject and others. That's where the skill of the interrogator comes in, to tell truth from lie; because of course, sometimes it is not possible to verify a story, whether it is extracted by normal or other means.
Streaky
Sodium Thiopental being a reasonably well known one. But as Streaky says, requires a very well trained and experienced operative to administer and exploit effectively. Such chemical techniques are often used (where they are used) in combination with psychological techniques, and, in some situations, physical stimulus (aka 'pain').
They can be highly effective, but do need great experience in using and in the associated questioning.
However, memories can be fragile, forgotten and fungible, and can be falsely held, and all states can be actively reinforced by the subject and others. That's where the skill of the interrogator comes in, to tell truth from lie; because of course, sometimes it is not possible to verify a story, whether it is extracted by normal or other means.
Streaky
But seriously, OP, the guy they have in custody may just be the village weirdo. Trust me, my family live not far from where this is going on, chickens living in the house is nothing, I genuinely know a family who have a pet sheep, and another with a pet horse, both of whom roam the house freely.
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