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chilistrucker

2,614 posts

37 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
mph1977, thanks very much, very informative.
bloody hell, so even if it were what appeared to be a minor (ish) shunt, 2 cars, 4 occupants in each, in a no win no fee scenario, (sorry meant whiplash injuries) there could be 8 ambulances required on scene? wow!

like i say, i'm grateful for the emegency services, especially in my job,you never know when your gonna need them, (hopefully never) and i don't mind how long i sit in a traffic queue for such incidents.

i'm sure it must get up alot of the crews noses,in these (whiplash)scenarios that seem to happen.
there are alot of nice cars out there with a broken headlight at worst, oh, and a roof removed, just in case smile

Crossflow Kid

7,821 posts

77 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
DWP said:
I can't understand the writer of the letter "stuck for 6 Hours" I came across the same problem, last Sunday. Got off the M25 going anti clock. sat nav back doubles, got down to Dorking sorted what I was there for, came back up to M25 going clock wise, traffic towards fuel spill was happily letting each other form into single line, well remember smiling couple of girls letting me in front of them, as well as many others with less attractive smiles, off at A3 as well sign posted that second jam was still there. Right through both problems on M25 from West London to Dorking and back in well under 2 hours 30 mins.
On the other hand......I once got trapped on the M6 whilst Plod and Trumpton swept up some broken glass.
Six hours to do a 1.5 hr journey and the devastatingly helpful advice from Dibble was that I should've a) tried a different route and b) allowed more time.
How one is supposed to "try a different route" when stranded between the previous motorway exit and the closure wasn't made entirely clear, unless they meant they'd be happy or me and the tens of thousands of others to reverse along the shoulder?
And six hours for a 90 minute journey........and I should've allowed more time? Really? Thanks Dibble, thanks a lot.

yellowjack

4,751 posts

52 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
Willy Nilly said:
There does seem to be rather more road closures than there ever used to be. Probably so they can gather evidence to nail some one for some thing, rather than getting the road open. Sweep the worst of the wreckage off the carriageway and crack on.
You demonstrate a very poor attitude, IMHO. Imagine a scenario in which one of your nearest and dearest is struck and killed by a vehicle which fails to stop. Would you be happy to be told by BiB that, due to the fact that they simply recovered the deceased and swept the debris to the edge of the carriageway, in order to get YOU moving more quickly, there was now no evidence with which to prosecute the killer. Happy with that? Thought not. So many people get angry when dangerous/careless drivers cause havoc on our roads, then direct their anger at those in our society whom we employ to clear up the mess, and, in legal terms, to then see that justice is done. You simply cannot have it both ways.

I can't imagine that any member of the emergency services would choose to spend New Year on their hands and knees, bagging up bits of a human being along the M3, but 4 years ago, that's exactly what I witnessed Hampshire's finest doing, when I returned from an early morning Mountainbike ride (see links below). The closure of the motorway in both directions was obvious as I crossed a bridge over it. The reason for it was not, until I glimpsed the recovery/evidence gathering operation from a small path as I cycled home parallel to the motorway. I won't go into detail, but it was not a pleasant task. At the time, the Police had no way of knowing that it was a suicide. The poor woman could just as easily have been murdered, or fallen from a moving vehicle. In cases like this, it is only right and proper that a full investigation is carried out to establish the facts, regardless of how long it takes. In this case, the Police were able to establish that the drivers involved were not to blame for the deceased's death.

How do you suggest such an incident should have been dealt with, Willy Nilly? A highways agency vacuum sweaper? Fire crews with hoses and stiff brooms? Or Police Officers with evidence bags and some degree of forensic awareness? I'd hazard a guess that it would be the latter, should one of your nearest and dearest be lying in the road, and to hell with any delays caused.


http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/m3-pyjama-wom...
http://www.metro.co.uk/news/83478-m3-suicide-woman...

Billyray911

556 posts

90 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
yellowjack said:
You demonstrate a very poor attitude, IMHO. Imagine a scenario in which one of your nearest and dearest is struck and killed by a vehicle which fails to stop. Would you be happy to be told by BiB that, due to the fact that they simply recovered the deceased and swept the debris to the edge of the carriageway, in order to get YOU moving more quickly, there was now no evidence with which to prosecute the killer. Happy with that? Thought not. So many people get angry when dangerous/careless drivers cause havoc on our roads, then direct their anger at those in our society whom we employ to clear up the mess, and, in legal terms, to then see that justice is done. You simply cannot have it both ways.

I can't imagine that any member of the emergency services would choose to spend New Year on their hands and knees, bagging up bits of a human being along the M3, but 4 years ago, that's exactly what I witnessed Hampshire's finest doing, when I returned from an early morning Mountainbike ride (see links below). The closure of the motorway in both directions was obvious as I crossed a bridge over it. The reason for it was not, until I glimpsed the recovery/evidence gathering operation from a small path as I cycled home parallel to the motorway. I won't go into detail, but it was not a pleasant task. At the time, the Police had no way of knowing that it was a suicide. The poor woman could just as easily have been murdered, or fallen from a moving vehicle. In cases like this, it is only right and proper that a full investigation is carried out to establish the facts, regardless of how long it takes. In this case, the Police were able to establish that the drivers involved were not to blame for the deceased's death.

How do you suggest such an incident should have been dealt with, Willy Nilly? A highways agency vacuum sweaper? Fire crews with hoses and stiff brooms? Or Police Officers with evidence bags and some degree of forensic awareness? I'd hazard a guess that it would be the latter, should one of your nearest and dearest be lying in the road, and to hell with any delays caused.


http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/m3-pyjama-wom...
http://www.metro.co.uk/news/83478-m3-suicide-woman...
Well said.And who do you think gets the unenviable task of fingerprinting the deceased, probably at the scene,so that they can be identified and another officer can have the other unenviable task of knocking on their loved ones door and giving them the worst possible news?
Probably not many on the self-obsessed on this forum.
However,as Crossflow Kid mentions "Thanks Dibble, thanks a lot".

MrTrilby

586 posts

168 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
yellowjack said:
Willy Nilly said:
There does seem to be rather more road closures than there ever used to be. Probably so they can gather evidence to nail some one for some thing, rather than getting the road open. Sweep the worst of the wreckage off the carriageway and crack on.
You demonstrate a very poor attitude, IMHO.
Indeed, and in the particular incident that I was unlucky enough to be involved in, the police gathered evidence in order to corroborate the view that I was not responsible for the incident. For which I am grateful. As it happens, they finished their work before the land ambulance arrived to take the casualty to hospital, so their work did not extend the duration for which the road was closed.
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oyster

6,643 posts

134 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
Vaux said:
grumpy52 said:
This is another case for introducing the zip code used in Germany .
You let one vehicle in when traffic is merging everybody does it even merc/bmw/audi/lorry drivers.
It has been, but it's called "merge in turn".
Highway Code rule 134
Except there are NEVER any signs indicating driveras to do this. Nor enforcement or education either.

Vaux

1,517 posts

102 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
mph1977 said:
from a trumpton point of view
- they will only accept stop messages from their own personnel and not from Police or EMS
- if there's an entrapment then they often want two Rescue Pumps if there multiple entrapments add a rescue tender and possibly a support pump
- similar scenarios with regard to hazchem and watercourses ( adding in pollution protection immediate actions while the EA and HA ISU are mobilised)
Is it true they send crews on both carriageways, as they don't trust location information?
How do retained firefighters get paid? If it's on deployment, that might explain why so many appliances show up?

Crossflow Kid

7,821 posts

77 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
Billyray911 said:
yellowjack said:
You demonstrate a very poor attitude, IMHO. Imagine a scenario in which one of your nearest and dearest is struck and killed by a vehicle which fails to stop. Would you be happy to be told by BiB that, due to the fact that they simply recovered the deceased and swept the debris to the edge of the carriageway, in order to get YOU moving more quickly, there was now no evidence with which to prosecute the killer. Happy with that? Thought not. So many people get angry when dangerous/careless drivers cause havoc on our roads, then direct their anger at those in our society whom we employ to clear up the mess, and, in legal terms, to then see that justice is done. You simply cannot have it both ways.

I can't imagine that any member of the emergency services would choose to spend New Year on their hands and knees, bagging up bits of a human being along the M3, but 4 years ago, that's exactly what I witnessed Hampshire's finest doing, when I returned from an early morning Mountainbike ride (see links below). The closure of the motorway in both directions was obvious as I crossed a bridge over it. The reason for it was not, until I glimpsed the recovery/evidence gathering operation from a small path as I cycled home parallel to the motorway. I won't go into detail, but it was not a pleasant task. At the time, the Police had no way of knowing that it was a suicide. The poor woman could just as easily have been murdered, or fallen from a moving vehicle. In cases like this, it is only right and proper that a full investigation is carried out to establish the facts, regardless of how long it takes. In this case, the Police were able to establish that the drivers involved were not to blame for the deceased's death.

How do you suggest such an incident should have been dealt with, Willy Nilly? A highways agency vacuum sweaper? Fire crews with hoses and stiff brooms? Or Police Officers with evidence bags and some degree of forensic awareness? I'd hazard a guess that it would be the latter, should one of your nearest and dearest be lying in the road, and to hell with any delays caused.


http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/m3-pyjama-wom...
http://www.metro.co.uk/news/83478-m3-suicide-woman...
Well said.And who do you think gets the unenviable task of fingerprinting the deceased, probably at the scene,so that they can be identified and another officer can have the other unenviable task of knocking on their loved ones door and giving them the worst possible news?
Probably not many on the self-obsessed on this forum.
However,as Crossflow Kid mentions "Thanks Dibble, thanks a lot".
Yes thanks alot indeed. The scene of the closure I got the joy of viewing for six hours was a shed load. No one was injured, let alone killed.
And besides, if you read my post again you'll see my criticism of the procedure isn't so much the way the carriageway is closed, but the way those affected by it are somehow regarded as responsible for their own predicament and just oh-so-stupid for not avoiding it.
How do you take an alternative route when stuck between junctions? I drive a Land Rover, so maybe next time I just say "Thanks officer", then engage low range and barge my way up the embankment and through the fence eh?
And how much extra time would you allow for a 90 minute journey? Come on.....I'm all ears.
I have absolutely no truck with the requirement to close a motorway to conduct an investigation, but what you boys really need to hoist on board is the way this is thrust upon the public and the reaction it gets as a result. The idea that stranded motorists can just bloody well wait (without any explanation, advice or helpful suggestion) really needs consigning to the history books.
You could learn a thing or two from the rail industry, where the welfare, safety and onward journey of trapped passengers is seen as almost as high a priority as any investigation and as such is dealt with largely as a separate incident. But hey, railways....they ain't the police, so they must be doing it wrong eh?
Or do you consider several thousand stranded people not to be a safety-related incident, bearing in mind in every thousand people statistically speaking you'll have a heavily pregnant woman, a diabetic, someone who suffers fits and seizures, a severe agrophobe/claustrophobe, a drug addict....just for starters?
But no, you're right....they're not important.

Edited by Crossflow Kid on Monday 8th October 14:43

Crossflow Kid

7,821 posts

77 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
Billyray911 said:
the self-obsessed on this forum.
Christ on a rusty bike, if you want self-obsessed try reading some of the BiB replies on here!

Deva Link

26,934 posts

131 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
The lady who died in the incident referred to in the orginal post died after (apparently) jumping off a bridge.

Being realistic, I suppose Bib have to establish that she really did jump and wasn't thrown off or knocked over by a vehicle etc.

I suppose also she delayed being removed from the scene by dying there. If she'd still been alive then the ambulance service would have scooped her up.

I still can't fathom why the road would be obstructed for 6 hours though. A couple of hours makes sense, and even that would be horrendously stressful for people stuck, missing flights etc.

mph1977

7,728 posts

54 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
Vaux said:
mph1977 said:
from a trumpton point of view
- they will only accept stop messages from their own personnel and not from Police or EMS
- if there's an entrapment then they often want two Rescue Pumps if there multiple entrapments add a rescue tender and possibly a support pump
- similar scenarios with regard to hazchem and watercourses ( adding in pollution protection immediate actions while the EA and HA ISU are mobilised)
Is it true they send crews on both carriageways, as they don't trust location information?
How do retained firefighters get paid? If it's on deployment, that might explain why so many appliances show up?
can't answer with regard to both carriageways as i'm not a trumpton, my knowledge and interaction with them at RTCs has been froman Ambulance / health point of view either at crash scenes or attending training which the fire service put on for the benefit of both their crews and various parts of 'health' ( the last one I went on there were hospital staff, immediate care doctors, and SJA crews - no NHS crews came either because no one who was Willing to do it as 'free' was available and/or they couldn't wrench a (off rota) vehicle from the claws of the fleet bods) .

if you are sending multiple resources sending from both ways may be a viable and valid option and motorway incidents are anecdotally poorly reported by the public especially on mobile phones ( vs the orange box fixed phones) and even if by mobile you give call takers the post numbers it doesn't always get passed on )

as for the pay of retained crews I believe they are paid for turning up and those who get a seat on the appliance are paid an hourly rate for the duration of the incident, however it would require the full time (usually FBU members) personnel in control to call them out vs calling out a none retained station ... - retained fire fighters are not necessarily FBU members - although AIUI unlike the situations with The Fed and SCs retained firefighters can join the FBU ( although there is a retained-only union as well ) excuse cynicism over the FBU and it's formation shroud waving teams ...

ashleyqprw12

157 posts

33 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
13th said:
/\/\/\ I just thank my lucky stars that I'm not the one they're coming for.
This is all that matters really, wish everyone would just give the police /paramedics everyone involved the space they need.

I'm sure if it took 6 hours to clear then that's because it was a job that took 6 hours to do!

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