Farmers shooting dogs !

Author
Discussion

POORCARDEALER

8,523 posts

240 months

Saturday 6th October 2012
quotequote all
shoehorn said:
I have dogs and some livestock,there are many passive protection systems available to protect livestock from dogs and wild animals,I have ultra sonics.
they work without incident and cost little.

If the farmer was at all concerned for the safety of his livestock then surely he would have fitted such devices,
he is situated next to a large dog kennel and you can`t be there 24 hours a day after all.

But it is typical of the 19th century mentality that many farmers still have(that I have met)that this fool thinks it perfectly acceptable to shoot someone else`s animals,Which may not even have been a threat to his,even though they find it perfectly acceptable that their animals can and will escape from time to time and cause mayhem including fatal accidents.
He,after all is the professional animal keeper.
He also should have known that a warning shot would have probably scared them off,bearing in mind he would have had to have been pretty close to them anyway.



Very well put.

Sheep are fond of bringing about their own demise in their desperate attempts to escape from sudden noises,light aircraft etc.
The gunfire probably did more to scare and stress the animals than a couple of collies,which farmers chose for sheep because of their naturally unaggressive nature.

If he is near enough to shoot the dogs with a shot gun then by virtue of the dogs posing a threat by being close to the sheep surely he must have been close to the sheep as well,he would have been left with a few options but chose to blast away.
Its just bloodymindedness from a bitter twisted old fool,plain and simple.
Probably had issues with the kennel owners.

LukeSi

5,753 posts

160 months

Saturday 6th October 2012
quotequote all
telecat said:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2159820/Fu...

Collie Not on the farmers land and shot dead. I expect when this guys certificate comes up for renewal his neighbours objections might stop him getting another one. I get why some farmers shoot at dogs unfortunately I have met a few who I wouldn't trust with a field of wheat let alone livestock and a Shotgun. I've been in areas where I've seen dead Lambs and sheep that the Farmer couldn't be bothered to clear even when he rents the land to the Public. There again Many of them leave them as poison for Birds of Prey so maybe we shouldn't be too surprised when they decide to kill a dog without any evidence it has done harm.

And as for Small Dogs, you haven't met some of the Sheep I've met. I wouldn't trust the Sheep near kids and Cows are well equipped to protect themselves.

Edited by telecat on Saturday 6th October 17:32
I can quite honestly say had that been my Dog he had shot I would currently be in prison for murder.

shoehorn

686 posts

142 months

Saturday 6th October 2012
quotequote all
4rephill said:
Basically, a couples house was being burgled and the owner of the house fired upon the burglars with a legally owned shotgun, hitting a couple of the burglars.
even scum bags know what they are doing is wrong,not such a clear cut line with animals.

Jasandjules

69,825 posts

228 months

Saturday 6th October 2012
quotequote all
eldar said:
You don't consider that Daily Mail article might not be the complete and whole truth?
I fail to see how that is possible.. Newspapers plainly only report the whole truth. wink

ClaphamGT3

11,269 posts

242 months

Saturday 6th October 2012
quotequote all
LukeSi said:
I can quite honestly say had that been my Dog he had shot I would currently be in prison for murder.
So you'd be attacking a guy carrying a loaded shotgun?

Not very bright are you?

wildcat45

8,056 posts

188 months

Saturday 6th October 2012
quotequote all
Luke I was avoiding getting into this.

I think I mentioned on a thread last year.

Back whe I was a kid in 1984, a mates dog got killed by a neighbour in a hit and run. The guy was confronted and didn't give a st. My mate, not so much a Mate now as he is a bit odd, but when he comes home to the village (Part of a city but we call it a village) I share a pint with.

It started with the guys Sierra getting damaged. For the last 20 years, this man and hs family have had problems. Pretty unpleasant things at times. Every year r two. Sometimes longer. A break in, nothing stolen nothing said by the intruder, the mans wife terrified. None of which can be pinned on this lad in question. He's had an army career and is a bit odd to say the least, but everyone knows he's behind it.

I don't condone his actions. No proof it is him either. The police did question him once.

Dogs get people very upset. I hate to think what the futre of a farmer who crossed a bloke like this would be like.

Two wrongs don't ake a right. Terror and intimidation is wrong, as is meting out "justice" with a shotgun on a pet.

If it happened to me, it would be by accident. My dog is only off the lead on the beach and our local farmer has a very well maintained dry stone wall with good quality gate.

As for the farmer. I suspect we would have a falling out, and I expect he would regret his action after some considered and perfectly legal retaliation on my part.

My townie wife's reaction I predict would be more direct and less legal. Hell I'm scared of her and she loves me! :-)

LukeSi

5,753 posts

160 months

Saturday 6th October 2012
quotequote all
wildcat45 said:
Luke I was avoiding getting into this.

I think I mentioned on a thread last year.

Back whe I was a kid in 1984, a mates dog got killed by a neighbour in a hit and run. The guy was confronted and didn't give a st. My mate, not so much a ate now as he is a bit odd, but when he comes home to the village (Part of a city but we call it a village) I share a pint with.

It started with the guys Sierra getting damaged. For the last 20 years, this man and hs family have had problems. Pretty unpleasant things at times. Every year r two. Sometimes longer. A break in, nothing stolen nothing said by the intruder, the mans wife terrified. None of which can be pinned on this lad in question. He's had an army career and is a bit odd to say the least, but everyone knows he's behind it.

I don't condone his actions. No proof it is him either. The police did question him once.

Dogs get people very upset. I hate to think what the futre of a farmer who crossed a bloke like this would be like.

Two wrongs don't ake a right. Terror and intimidation is wrong, as is meting out "justice" with a shotgun on a pet.

If it happened to me, it would be by accident. My dog is only off the lead on the beach and our local farmer has a very well maintained dry stone wall with good quality gate.

As for the farmer. I suspect we would have a falling out, and I expect he would regret his action after some considered and perfectly legal retaliation on my part.

My townie wife's reaction I predict would be more direct and less legal. Hell I'm scared of her and she loves me! :-)
I think in reality your approach would likely be the one I would take, really the main thing would be not doing anything stupid because of emotions. One thing is for sure, the farmer would regret it a lot.

hidetheelephants

23,731 posts

192 months

Saturday 6th October 2012
quotequote all
Jasandjules said:
telecat said:
I hope to goodness that decision is appealed. This appears to advocate revenge killing of dogs and does not appear to agree with the Act either. Not to mention being on someone else's land with a firearm without permission and discharging it. Should be in jail right now for that alone.
I agree; not withstanding the dubious quality of DM reporting, if the dog was shot in the owner's garden the shooter has broken the law.

Andehh

7,107 posts

205 months

Saturday 6th October 2012
quotequote all
A PET dog that has been ALLOWED by its owners to run wild near a man's lively hood with the law behind him. Common sense maybe?

Too many people looking at their pooch and seeing it as an animal with equal rights as the rest of us....

jatopack

148 posts

229 months

Sunday 7th October 2012
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wildoliver said:
I can't believe the (I hope) blatant trolling on this thread, I say I hope because if it isn't trolling then the IQ of PH has taken yet another turn for the worst.

If your dog is on a farmers land worrying his livestock expect it to get shot. It's the law live with it. Want to avoid it happening? Easy keep the dog off his land, that is where the kennel was negligent and I presume now liable to damages from the dog owners (and the farmer if the animals caused a problem before shot).

It's nothing like scaring chavs off from vandalism or any other absurd suggestion on this thread because it's a dog, not a human, argue why the dog does what it does till your blue in the face it doesn't matter, what matters is there is a law there that won't be getting repealed any time soon.
Dang - I am away for a day and miss the entertainment.

Second paragraph is spot on.....

Having reread my post - "justice" is not quite the right word. But I will not inflame anyone further with the alternative words.

I suspect there are a few people reading (maybe posting) who are not country people and do not know dogs or sheep.

A dog can and will start to worry sheep for no reason - It is a particularly unpleasant job to cut the throat of 20 sheep that have been attacked by a pack of dogs for sport. Dogs are a pack animal, but a dog will start in its own, and once started they continue.

The law was enacted in times when the rural sector bought considerable revenue and still does, it is not money - it is practicality - many dogs (often those out at night) worrying - have no collars - so identification is impossible..........

Solution is simple - know where your dog is and what they are doing - then they will be as safe as houses. Let them loose - you run the risk....are you absolutely certain they are not worrying livestock?

Edited by jatopack on Sunday 7th October 04:45

shunaphil

440 posts

142 months

Sunday 7th October 2012
quotequote all
wildoliver said:
I can't believe the (I hope) blatant trolling on this thread, I say I hope because if it isn't trolling then the IQ of PH has taken yet another turn for the worst.

If your dog is on a farmers land worrying his livestock expect it to get shot. It's the law live with it. Want to avoid it happening? Easy keep the dog off his land, that is where the kennel was negligent and I presume now liable to damages from the dog owners (and the farmer if the animals caused a problem before shot).

It's nothing like scaring chavs off from vandalism or any other absurd suggestion on this thread because it's a dog, not a human, argue why the dog does what it does till your blue in the face it doesn't matter, what matters is there is a law there that won't be getting repealed any time soon.
Finally some sense on yet another of these threads. The law on this is perfectly clear. When will people learn that their beloved diddums pet WILL get shot if its worrying (my) sheep, or cattle, or even penned up poultry (as per recent case involving pheasants).

Believe it or not, the countryside is NOT a resource for dog walkers etc. It is where people like me make a living, and run businesses. If you interefere with that the law gives us immediate redress because it is an animal welfare and cruelty issue.

We rent out holiday cottages on the estate here, and of course have livestock. Couple of years ago a family with two large dogs ripped apart two sheep. To their credit they reported it to me immediately as the sheep were (just) still alive. I shot the sheep, but as the event was over by the time I got there I did not shoot the dogs. The family were asked to leave immediately, pay in full for their weeks holiday (this was only day 1) and pay for the sheep , or they could stay and take the risk that if their dogs did it again I WOULD shoot them if caught in the act. They chose the former option.

You cannot catch by hand, tranquilise, frighten with a warning shot etc. a dog which is ripping a sheep apart or in full run. Your only option is to shoot it from a safe distance. This has no impact on your firearms renewal, nor should it. If I shoot your dog neither will you murder, attack or otherwise intimidate me - despite what you might hammer out on your internet keyboard - you will complain to the police, maybe consult a lawyer, and guess what - you'll get nowhere.

There is only one lesson to be drawn from this - keep your dog on a lead near livestock.

Dave Hedgehog

14,541 posts

203 months

Sunday 7th October 2012
quotequote all
shunaphil said:
wildoliver said:
I can't believe the (I hope) blatant trolling on this thread, I say I hope because if it isn't trolling then the IQ of PH has taken yet another turn for the worst.

If your dog is on a farmers land worrying his livestock expect it to get shot. It's the law live with it. Want to avoid it happening? Easy keep the dog off his land, that is where the kennel was negligent and I presume now liable to damages from the dog owners (and the farmer if the animals caused a problem before shot).

It's nothing like scaring chavs off from vandalism or any other absurd suggestion on this thread because it's a dog, not a human, argue why the dog does what it does till your blue in the face it doesn't matter, what matters is there is a law there that won't be getting repealed any time soon.
Finally some sense on yet another of these threads. The law on this is perfectly clear. When will people learn that their beloved diddums pet WILL get shot if its worrying (my) sheep, or cattle, or even penned up poultry (as per recent case involving pheasants).

Believe it or not, the countryside is NOT a resource for dog walkers etc. It is where people like me make a living, and run businesses. If you interefere with that the law gives us immediate redress because it is an animal welfare and cruelty issue.

We rent out holiday cottages on the estate here, and of course have livestock. Couple of years ago a family with two large dogs ripped apart two sheep. To their credit they reported it to me immediately as the sheep were (just) still alive. I shot the sheep, but as the event was over by the time I got there I did not shoot the dogs. The family were asked to leave immediately, pay in full for their weeks holiday (this was only day 1) and pay for the sheep , or they could stay and take the risk that if their dogs did it again I WOULD shoot them if caught in the act. They chose the former option.

You cannot catch by hand, tranquilise, frighten with a warning shot etc. a dog which is ripping a sheep apart or in full run. Your only option is to shoot it from a safe distance. This has no impact on your firearms renewal, nor should it. If I shoot your dog neither will you murder, attack or otherwise intimidate me - despite what you might hammer out on your internet keyboard - you will complain to the police, maybe consult a lawyer, and guess what - you'll get nowhere.

There is only one lesson to be drawn from this - keep your dog on a lead near livestock.
common sense has no place on PH

moreflaps

746 posts

154 months

Sunday 7th October 2012
quotequote all
mph1977 said:
and I wonder how many of the people who complain aobut halal slaughter methods have

1. seen the so called 'humane' methods in use vs an expert halal slaughterman

2. have the guts to kill it , cook it , eat it at all even if it is just a chicken ...
Are you suggesting that captive bolt is slower method of killing than halal?

(FWW I have hunted, field dressed and eaten wild pig).

ClaphamGT3

11,269 posts

242 months

Sunday 7th October 2012
quotequote all
shunaphil said:
Finally some sense on yet another of these threads. The law on this is perfectly clear. When will people learn that their beloved diddums pet WILL get shot if its worrying (my) sheep, or cattle, or even penned up poultry (as per recent case involving pheasants).

Believe it or not, the countryside is NOT a resource for dog walkers etc. It is where people like me make a living, and run businesses. If you interefere with that the law gives us immediate redress because it is an animal welfare and cruelty issue.

We rent out holiday cottages on the estate here, and of course have livestock. Couple of years ago a family with two large dogs ripped apart two sheep. To their credit they reported it to me immediately as the sheep were (just) still alive. I shot the sheep, but as the event was over by the time I got there I did not shoot the dogs. The family were asked to leave immediately, pay in full for their weeks holiday (this was only day 1) and pay for the sheep , or they could stay and take the risk that if their dogs did it again I WOULD shoot them if caught in the act. They chose the former option.

You cannot catch by hand, tranquilise, frighten with a warning shot etc. a dog which is ripping a sheep apart or in full run. Your only option is to shoot it from a safe distance. This has no impact on your firearms renewal, nor should it. If I shoot your dog neither will you murder, attack or otherwise intimidate me - despite what you might hammer out on your internet keyboard - you will complain to the police, maybe consult a lawyer, and guess what - you'll get nowhere.

There is only one lesson to be drawn from this - keep your dog on a lead near livestock.
This to the power of a gazillion.

An awful lot of bleeding heart half-wits who claim to be animal lovers but clearly don't even know what their dog actually is here.

An awful lot of posters on this thread simply shouldn't be allowed to own dogs

longblackcoat

5,047 posts

182 months

Sunday 7th October 2012
quotequote all
shunaphil said:
Finally some sense on yet another of these threads. The law on this is perfectly clear. When will people learn that their beloved diddums pet WILL get shot if its worrying (my) sheep, or cattle, or even penned up poultry (as per recent case involving pheasants).

Believe it or not, the countryside is NOT a resource for dog walkers etc. It is where people like me make a living, and run businesses. If you interefere with that the law gives us immediate redress because it is an animal welfare and cruelty issue.

We rent out holiday cottages on the estate here, and of course have livestock. Couple of years ago a family with two large dogs ripped apart two sheep. To their credit they reported it to me immediately as the sheep were (just) still alive. I shot the sheep, but as the event was over by the time I got there I did not shoot the dogs. The family were asked to leave immediately, pay in full for their weeks holiday (this was only day 1) and pay for the sheep , or they could stay and take the risk that if their dogs did it again I WOULD shoot them if caught in the act. They chose the former option.

You cannot catch by hand, tranquilise, frighten with a warning shot etc. a dog which is ripping a sheep apart or in full run. Your only option is to shoot it from a safe distance. This has no impact on your firearms renewal, nor should it. If I shoot your dog neither will you murder, attack or otherwise intimidate me - despite what you might hammer out on your internet keyboard - you will complain to the police, maybe consult a lawyer, and guess what - you'll get nowhere.

There is only one lesson to be drawn from this - keep your dog on a lead near livestock.
There's another lesson - that there's monumental arrogance out there in the countryside. Country folk want the townies to come to their precious countryside, to bring money and thus provide employment, but seem to resent them massively.

Get over it. If you lose a sheep, that's frustrating and annoying, but you've lost an economic asset; if you get compensated, you're in no worse a position. You don't particularly care about the animal - by definition, you see it purely as an asset which will be slaughtered - so there's no particular attachment to it.

Dog owners absolutely should have their dogs under control, but if you're that concerned that they might not, rather than strong-arming them out after a day with a thinly-veiled threat that their dogs might not make it through the week, why not refuse to rent to dog owners in the first place? Ultimately, if you do have dog owners renting your properties, you have to accept that there might be some collateral damage. Either accept that there may be the occasional livestock loss (for which, rightly, you should be compensated) or don't rent the damn place out.


9mm

3,128 posts

209 months

Sunday 7th October 2012
quotequote all
longblackcoat said:
shunaphil said:
Finally some sense on yet another of these threads. The law on this is perfectly clear. When will people learn that their beloved diddums pet WILL get shot if its worrying (my) sheep, or cattle, or even penned up poultry (as per recent case involving pheasants).

Believe it or not, the countryside is NOT a resource for dog walkers etc. It is where people like me make a living, and run businesses. If you interefere with that the law gives us immediate redress because it is an animal welfare and cruelty issue.

We rent out holiday cottages on the estate here, and of course have livestock. Couple of years ago a family with two large dogs ripped apart two sheep. To their credit they reported it to me immediately as the sheep were (just) still alive. I shot the sheep, but as the event was over by the time I got there I did not shoot the dogs. The family were asked to leave immediately, pay in full for their weeks holiday (this was only day 1) and pay for the sheep , or they could stay and take the risk that if their dogs did it again I WOULD shoot them if caught in the act. They chose the former option.

You cannot catch by hand, tranquilise, frighten with a warning shot etc. a dog which is ripping a sheep apart or in full run. Your only option is to shoot it from a safe distance. This has no impact on your firearms renewal, nor should it. If I shoot your dog neither will you murder, attack or otherwise intimidate me - despite what you might hammer out on your internet keyboard - you will complain to the police, maybe consult a lawyer, and guess what - you'll get nowhere.

There is only one lesson to be drawn from this - keep your dog on a lead near livestock.
There's another lesson - that there's monumental arrogance out there in the countryside. Country folk want the townies to come to their precious countryside, to bring money and thus provide employment, but seem to resent them massively.

Get over it. If you lose a sheep, that's frustrating and annoying, but you've lost an economic asset; if you get compensated, you're in no worse a position. You don't particularly care about the animal - by definition, you see it purely as an asset which will be slaughtered - so there's no particular attachment to it.

Dog owners absolutely should have their dogs under control, but if you're that concerned that they might not, rather than strong-arming them out after a day with a thinly-veiled threat that their dogs might not make it through the week, why not refuse to rent to dog owners in the first place? Ultimately, if you do have dog owners renting your properties, you have to accept that there might be some collateral damage. Either accept that there may be the occasional livestock loss (for which, rightly, you should be compensated) or don't rent the damn place out.
My position is somewhere between these two posts. I fully respect the rights of farmers to shoot dogs, but as has been said many times, rights come with responsibilities. Renting property near sheep to people with animals seems remarkably ill-advised to me. I don't doubt that shooting dogs is necessary in some circumstances - sheep worrying is a frequent problem on the South Downs and I can accept that it is distressing and unpleasant for farmers to have to deal with the consequences.

Edited by 9mm on Sunday 7th October 09:48

buggalugs

9,243 posts

236 months

Sunday 7th October 2012
quotequote all
A couple of people on this thread seem very keen to demote a famers aminal to the status of 'business stock' whilst at the same time deifying dogs.

Farmers love their animals, you want to argue that a dog owner loves his dog more than a farmer loves his animals? Really? The rest is down to practicalities.

I don't see any parallels with waving a gun around in central Birmingham as someone said above rolleyes

Willy Nilly

12,511 posts

166 months

Sunday 7th October 2012
quotequote all
All people have to do, is keep their dogs on a lead. It is not hard. All this hard man "you shoot my dog and I will get you" is just bks.People just don't realise what dogs do to sheep. I have said up thread that I have pictures of the damage and I feel it is appropriate to educate people that feel their dogs should run where they like as to the consequences of what can happen when you do this. If you feel you might be offended by this, well I am sorry.

The sheep were in a building in the winter, all heavily in lamb, they were worth fortunes, not that matter to the sheep. 2 family pet dogs got into the building and rounded them up into a corner. The sheep were piled up on top on each other trying to get away, but they just couldn't, not unlike a well know football stadium cock up. It is 16 or 18 years ago now, and I forget exactly how many sheep died, but they had actually killed several and an equal number were trampled to death. It was not a nice sight to see first thing in the morning. Again, if you think you might be offended by this I have given you some warning, so either look at another MX5 thread, or take it on the chin.

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz319/superC90/...

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz319/superC90/...

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz319/superC90/...

Poor sheep.

All people are asking, is that you keep your dogs on a lead near livestock. Picking up after them and picking up your litter is always welcome too. Thanks.

ETA

Please leave the images embedded or they will be removed.

TYIA

Edited by Big Al. on Monday 8th October 21:21

Fish

3,974 posts

281 months

Sunday 7th October 2012
quotequote all
I again live in the country, Lisa is a townie and when we got a puppy I reiterated control of dog etc. She let him off down a lane and as a working cocker he put a pheasant up which went back to the nearest hold wood with feeders. He spent 15mins chasing the pheasants around and mucked up the local keepers drives for the morning. He did come back and thought it was fun. Kim the keeper said he would of shot the dog if he'd had his gun with him, if I was in his position so would I.

This brought the fine balance of domestication home to Lisa who now better understands control of the dog, he is very well behaved but like any young dog get get a scent and go. She is far more careful when he is off the lead now and recognises she may have lost the dog.

9mm

3,128 posts

209 months

Sunday 7th October 2012
quotequote all
Fish said:
I again live in the country, Lisa is a townie and when we got a puppy I reiterated control of dog etc. She let him off down a lane and as a working cocker he put a pheasant up which went back to the nearest hold wood with feeders. He spent 15mins chasing the pheasants around and mucked up the local keepers drives for the morning. He did come back and thought it was fun. Kim the keeper said he would of shot the dog if he'd had his gun with him, if I was in his position so would I.

This brought the fine balance of domestication home to Lisa who now better understands control of the dog, he is very well behaved but like any young dog get get a scent and go. She is far more careful when he is off the lead now and recognises she may have lost the dog.
Are pheasants defined as livestock? I'd be surprised if they are, and if not, Kim would surely be on a very sticky wicket.

I see chickens count, according to one definition. Any case law on pheasant owners shooting dogs?

Edited by 9mm on Sunday 7th October 10:26