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otolith

23,762 posts

84 months

[news] 
Sunday 7th October 2012 quote quote all
buggalugs said:
you want to argue that a dog owner loves his dog more than a farmer loves his animals?
I would find it pretty hard to send my pets to the abbatoir.

wildcat45

3,281 posts

69 months

[news] 
Sunday 7th October 2012 quote quote all

Farmers love their animals,

So I have heard :-)

For what it is worth, my Dad's uncle who owned the farm, loved his milk herd. When he got too old to farm and with no kids to follow it broke his heart sending them off to wherever they went. I was only little at the time, but the farming folk I knew back them were kind, gentle loving people, who loved their dogs, Jolly the horse and the pet Owl who lived for years in the potato shed.

I think it is a case of lt common sense prevail.

Dog owners, Keep your dogs on your lead.

Farmers, Keep the finger off the trigger.


Law aside, both parties dog owner and farmer could open up a massive st storm if a beloved pet gets killed. Some people, right or wrong, hold dogs up there with kids.

Try to keep the emotions down, and try to keep a sense of humour.....as above.

Country and town will always clash at times. As will town and gown, etc. I am a townie, but with a foot in both camps with rural and city background. I suppose I come down on the side of dog owners, but that doesn't mean I don't understand what has been said by country folk on here.

I contribute to my local rural economy in Scotland, I estimate that in the past 2 years I must have forked out something like 50-60K in our local rural economy, I have bought cars locally, shop locally for furnishings, and big ticket items like TVs. I have employed workmen locally.

I think that puts me and others like me in a position where we are qualified and entitled to comment on stuff like this. It also means the countryside has to change to fit in with a changing demographic. How that is done is the question.

The countryside needs to survive, tourism and people like me pay the bills council tax and the like, just like anyone else who works there. You know some wraning signes spelling out what will happen to your dog if you let it off, may just do the trick. Maybe education is the answer.

Gun law may have a legal place in the farmyard. I think to a certain extent it should, but it is a responsible and very last resort. Kill a rich townie's dog, he will apply suburban standards to what you have done, not country standards. Kill some on holiday Geordie builder's dog, and you're going to need a new farm. Others will apply their standards to any given situation. We all do.

Some family guy, Having to tell his little children Fido is dead, or even having his wife and kids watch his demise. Legal or not, do that to a well conneccted monied townie and one way or other you will end up in court criminal or civil for soemthing you have or have not done. A firearms offence when you angrily make threats to kill the dog (But they say you pointed the gun at them.) Public order, tax, environmental, alarm, distress, financial loss, compensation for trauma. it will cost you, even though you are in the right.

So, shall we just agree that a bit of work is needed on both sides and all go for a beer so to speak?




longblackcoat

2,253 posts

63 months

[news] 
Sunday 7th October 2012 quote quote all
wildcat45 said:
Farmers love their animals,

So I have heard :-)

For what it is worth, my Dad's uncle who owned the farm, loved his milk herd. When he got too old to farm and with no kids to follow it broke his heart sending them off to wherever they went. I was onl little at the time, but the farming folk I knew back them were kind, gentle loving people, who loved their dogs, Jolly the horse and the pet Owl who lived for years in the potato shed.

I think it is a case of lt common sense prevail.

Dgo owners, Keep your dogs on your lead.

Farmers, Keep the finger off the trigger.


Law aside, both parties dog owner and farmer could open up a massive st storm if a beloved pet gets killed. Some people, right or wrong, hold dogs up there with kids.

Try to keep the emotions down, and try to keep a sense of humour.....as above.

Country and town will always clash at times. As will town and gown, etc. I am a townie, but with a foot in both camps with rural and city background. I suppose I come down on the side of dog owners, but that doesn't mean I don't understand what has been said by country folk on here.

I contribute to my local rural economy in Scotland, I estimate that in the past 2 years I must have forked out something like 50-60K in our local rural economy, I have bought cars locally, shop locally for furnishings, and big ticket items like TVs. I have employed workmen locally.

I think that puts me and others like me in a position where we are qualified and entitled to comment on stuff like this. It also means the countryside has to change to fit in with a changing demographic. How that is done is the question.

The countryside needs to survive, tourism and people like me pay the bills council tax and the like, just like anyone else who works there. You know some wraning signes spelling out what will happen to your dog if you let it off, may just do the trick. Maybe education is the answer.

Gun law may have a legal place in the farmyard. I think to a certain extent it should, but it is a responsible and very last resort. Kill a rich townie's dog, he will apply suburban standards to what you have done, not country standards. Kill some on holiday Geordie builder's dog, and you're going to need a new farm. Others will apply their standards to any given situation. We all do.

Some family guy, Having to tell his little children Fido is dead, or even having his wife and kids watch his demise. Legal or not, do that to a well conneccted monied townie and one way or other you will end up in court criminal or civil for soemthing you have or have not done. A firearms offence when you angrily make threats to kill the dog (But they say you pointed the gun at them.) Public order, tax, environmental, alarm, distress, financial loss, compensation for trauma. it will cost you, even though you are in the right.

So, shall we just agree that a bit of work is needed on both sides and all go for a beer so to speak?
Hugely sensible post.


POORCARDEALER

6,587 posts

121 months

[news] 
Sunday 7th October 2012 quote quote all
As much as I'm not keen on farmers acting like Dirty Harry, there are some idiot dog owners around.... Must see 6 dogs a day with no leads on being "walked" at the side of main roads... Often see police cars drive past,never seem one stop

ClaphamGT3

4,084 posts

123 months

[news] 
Sunday 7th October 2012 quote quote all
Livestock farmers - and I know loads of them - are highly skilled professionals in animal husbandry. They know huge amounts about animal health and welfare and tend to be passionately committed to it. They do a job that requires long hours, dreadful working conditions and - in most cases - extremely low pay in relation to their level of professional expertise because of their passion for it.

To a livestock farmer, shooting a dog is not a decision taken lightly and will always be a distasteful necessity. They will be doubly aggrieved because not only have they seen their livestock threatened/harmed/killed but also they've had to destroy a dog because of the selfish actions of its witless owner. This will be a dreadful experience for a guy who loves animals, will almost certainly have dogs of his own and who will have trained them to working standards. Such an individual is - quite rightly and understandably - going to give rather short shrift to the whining gobste "You've killed my dog - I'm gonna get you!" Brigade.
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10 Pence Short

30,943 posts

97 months

[news] 
Sunday 7th October 2012 quote quote all
ClaphamGT3 said:
Livestock farmers - and I know loads of them - are highly skilled professionals in animal husbandry. They know huge amounts about animal health and welfare and tend to be passionately committed to it. They do a job that requires long hours, dreadful working conditions and - in most cases - extremely low pay in relation to their level of professional expertise because of their passion for it.

To a livestock farmer, shooting a dog is not a decision taken lightly and will always be a distasteful necessity. They will be doubly aggrieved because not only have they seen their livestock threatened/harmed/killed but also they've had to destroy a dog because of the selfish actions of its witless owner. This will be a dreadful experience for a guy who loves animals, will almost certainly have dogs of his own and who will have trained them to working standards. Such an individual is - quite rightly and understandably - going to give rather short shrift to the whining gobste "You've killed my dog - I'm gonna get you!" Brigade.
Having lived in rural Cumbria for 25 years or so, I know and have known plenty of livestock farmers.

Whilst there are many who match your description, there are also many who don't give a st about their animals and treat them with disdain. The reality is that like any slice of population, there is good and bad within it.

If I allowed my dog to run loose and it attacked livestock, resulting in it being shot as it did so, I would be upset at myself, not the farmer.

eldar

8,015 posts

76 months

[news] 
Sunday 7th October 2012 quote quote all
10 Pence Short said:
Whilst there are many who match your description, there are also many who don't give a st about their animals and treat them with disdain. The reality is that like any slice of population, there is good and bad within it.

If I allowed my dog to run loose and it attacked livestock, resulting in it being shot as it did so, I would be upset at myself, not the farmer.
A farmer near me (also Cumbria) was convicted of abusing his stock.

http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/cruel_cumbrian_f...

To say he was unpopular thereafter - particularly with other farmers - would be an understatement.

Engineer1

9,945 posts

89 months

[news] 
Sunday 7th October 2012 quote quote all
The answer is don't let your dog off the lead round livestock unless it is perfectly behaved and trained, even then keep an eye on it and be prepared to call it back. The Farmer who shoots your dog is doing because they have to the same way a dog that bites a person badly will be put down, it has gone from a pet to a wild killing animal that can't be trusted any more.

otolith

23,762 posts

84 months

[news] 
Sunday 7th October 2012 quote quote all
Engineer1 said:
The Farmer who shoots your dog is doing because they have to the same way a dog that bites a person badly will be put down, it has gone from a pet to a wild killing animal that can't be trusted any more.
It's the same animal it always was, the misconception that there is a difference between a pet dog which won't hurt livestock and a wild killing animal that will is the root of the problem. A dog is a predator. All dogs are predators. You can suppress or direct their instincts, but they all have them.

The farmer can shoot the dog to stop it worrying sheep, he can't shoot it because he has decided that it is now a sheep-worrier.

Engineer1

9,945 posts

89 months

[news] 
Sunday 7th October 2012 quote quote all
I'm not sure if I made my point clearly. The moment the dog starts to worry the farmer's sheep it is now a danger that needs controlling rather than someone's cute loyal pet. The Farmer wouldn't and shouldn't shoot someone's pet provided they stay the well behaved pet.

otolith

23,762 posts

84 months

[news] 
Sunday 7th October 2012 quote quote all
Yep - what I was getting at is that once it ceases to be a threat, he no longer has a defence to shooting it.

clyffepypard

34 posts

53 months

[news] 
Sunday 7th October 2012 quote quote all
9mm said:
Fish said:
I again live in the country, Lisa is a townie and when we got a puppy I reiterated control of dog etc. She let him off down a lane and as a working cocker he put a pheasant up which went back to the nearest hold wood with feeders. He spent 15mins chasing the pheasants around and mucked up the local keepers drives for the morning. He did come back and thought it was fun. Kim the keeper said he would of shot the dog if he'd had his gun with him, if I was in his position so would I.

This brought the fine balance of domestication home to Lisa who now better understands control of the dog, he is very well behaved but like any young dog get get a scent and go. She is far more careful when he is off the lead now and recognises she may have lost the dog.
Are pheasants defined as livestock? I'd be surprised if they are, and if not, Kim would surely be on a very sticky wicket.

I see chickens count, according to one definition. Any case law on pheasant owners shooting dogs?

Edited by 9mm on Sunday 7th October 10:26
No, indeed they are not!.
Game birds are specifically excluded from the definition of livestock, and a keeper would be breaking the law for shooting a dog in such circumstances. The law is quite specific about which types of livestock farmers can protect from dog worrying.. This was certainly the situation last time I checked the law on this issue.

However, this is a minor point, and the fact remains that owners need to be aware that their dogs can cause damage that they are unable to stop.

Nasty Doorman

108 posts

64 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
9mm said:
Are pheasants defined as livestock? I'd be surprised if they are, and if not, Kim would surely be on a very sticky wicket.

I see chickens count, according to one definition. Any case law on pheasant owners shooting dogs?

Edited by 9mm on Sunday 7th October 10:26
If they are in the pen and not released then they are classed as livestock..but as soon as the pen gates are left open they are classed as wild birds.

y2blade

52,367 posts

95 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
Nigel Worc's said:
MrBrightSi said:
Such a massive failure by the kennel which put a farmer in one wk possition.

As a dog owner im pretty upset by the story and hate the thought that his could happen to my dogs.

What a real shame for the owners.

On a side note, i can't really have any strong emotions other than sadness about this, i can't be mad at a farmer doing what he has too, unless it comes to light he is a bit of a tt who enjoys this kind of thing.
My feelings exactly !
My feelings too.
As a dog lover I can only imagine the sadness the owners must be feeling.

I can see the farmers side of things too though...It would be interesting to hear the his reply to the piece.
If unknown dogs were loose amongst our horses and worrying them I'd not think twice.

Dogs should be controlled around livestock, This final sentence says it all.

"A spokesman for West Mercia Police said there would not be an investigation into the farmer’s actions. "



Jasandjules

49,163 posts

109 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
y2blade said:
"A spokesman for West Mercia Police said there would not be an investigation into the farmer’s actions. "
You might be amazed at how often police can get things wrong. No slur on them however given the vast amount of legislation. For example, the statute IIRC states that the matter must be reported to the police by the Farmer within 48 hours. If he did not do that I believe the defence falls away..... Be interesting to know if it was indeed reported.


y2blade

52,367 posts

95 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
Jasandjules said:
y2blade said:
"A spokesman for West Mercia Police said there would not be an investigation into the farmer’s actions. "
You might be amazed at how often police can get things wrong. No slur on them however given the vast amount of legislation. For example, the statute IIRC states that the matter must be reported to the police by the Farmer within 48 hours. If he did not do that I believe the defence falls away..... Be interesting to know if it was indeed reported.
Fair comment.

Has anyone heard the farmer's side of things in this case?

plasticpig

8,947 posts

105 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
clyffepypard said:
No, indeed they are not!.
Game birds are specifically excluded from the definition of livestock, and a keeper would be breaking the law for shooting a dog in such circumstances. The law is quite specific about which types of livestock farmers can protect from dog worrying.. This was certainly the situation last time I checked the law on this issue.

However, this is a minor point, and the fact remains that owners need to be aware that their dogs can cause damage that they are unable to stop.
It's also worth pointing out that it's a criminal offence for a dog to worry livestock and the owner can be prosecuted.

Sexual Chocolate

1,257 posts

24 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
comment on Article said:
Heres a few facts:

The dogs were shot in the chest with a 22 rifle so unless the 70 year old farmer is a crackshot it looks as though he called the dogs to him then executed them at close range. Unnecessary really because no sheep had been harmed.
I suspect when his renewal comes up he won't get it.


Jasandjules

49,163 posts

109 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
Sexual Chocolate said:
I suspect when his renewal comes up he won't get it.
If that is true then he also has no defence under the Act and the owner of the dogs should be getting plod to get on with prosecuting him.

y2blade

52,367 posts

95 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
Sexual Chocolate said:
comment on Article said:
Heres a few facts:

The dogs were shot in the chest with a 22 rifle so unless the 70 year old farmer is a crackshot it looks as though he called the dogs to him then executed them at close range. Unnecessary really because no sheep had been harmed.
I suspect when his renewal comes up he won't get it.
That changes things somewhat...IF IT IS TRUE.
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