Car Exhaust Noise
Discussion
A friend of mine, (who has also been stopped by Norfolk Police for exhaust noise but was allowed to continue on his way after the test) had a chat with the guy who wrote the test procedure and training manual for Norfolk Police this afternoon. The guy said he stands by his method, though my friend did point out the way he saw things and the errors in their procedures. Just goes to prove how idiotic they are.
Still, a week has gone by since I informed them I wanted to go to court, Not heard a thing from them.
Still, a week has gone by since I informed them I wanted to go to court, Not heard a thing from them.
Today I stopped to have a chat with one of my sons old school friends who has a 1.4 Civic, and he told me he had been done for excessive exhaust noise. So I was interested to hear his experiences on the way his test was done by our inept Norfolk Police road traffic officers.
He was following a Police Road Traffic car for about 4 miles before the police stopped in front of him and demanded to test his car.
He was taken to a local village hall car park ( gravel & grass) and asked if his car had an exhaust ? which he said "of course" then he was asked if he had a working speedo & rev counter? "Yes" he replied. He was then asked if his ignition worked ? By this time he sarcastically said yes.
The Police officer then said he was going to conduct a noise check on the exhaust.. Test instruments were set out in accordance to ISO5130 then the officer stood directly behind the car exhaust and asked my sons frient to take the revs upto 5500 RPM and hold it, which he did for two tests. 78 & 79dB which is a pass. Then he was asked to take it to the red line and hold it for 10 seconds. This he then told the officer he was unhappy to do, The Officer then said that his car would be impounded if he refused the test.
He reluctantly and with protest did as the officer asked. 86dB. The officer then told him it was above the 82dB limit and slapped him with a £30 Norfolk Police Beer fund voucher.
To make things worse he had a sticker on his car which said "I'd rather push my Honda than drive a Ford" which was for a bit of banter between him and his mate with a Zetec Fiesta. The officer took offensive to this sticker as he said he drove a Ford. My lads friend then queried the fact that the Road Traffic car was a Volvo, but the officer said that he had a Ford at home on his driveway. and he was to remove the sticker or be slapped with another offence of discrimination.
Unfortunately being an 18 year old naive driver, he payed up the fine, but said that he didn't agree with the way the officer dealt with him. The Central ticket office said that they would look into it, but have heard nothing back. Also the ticket the officer gave had a phone number on it which has not been used by Norfolk Police for over 2 years.
This really annoyed me that the bloody Police can do this and blatantly get away with it, and before you all ask, I still have not heard anything back about a court hearing with my little brush with them over exhaust noise.
He was following a Police Road Traffic car for about 4 miles before the police stopped in front of him and demanded to test his car.
He was taken to a local village hall car park ( gravel & grass) and asked if his car had an exhaust ? which he said "of course" then he was asked if he had a working speedo & rev counter? "Yes" he replied. He was then asked if his ignition worked ? By this time he sarcastically said yes.
The Police officer then said he was going to conduct a noise check on the exhaust.. Test instruments were set out in accordance to ISO5130 then the officer stood directly behind the car exhaust and asked my sons frient to take the revs upto 5500 RPM and hold it, which he did for two tests. 78 & 79dB which is a pass. Then he was asked to take it to the red line and hold it for 10 seconds. This he then told the officer he was unhappy to do, The Officer then said that his car would be impounded if he refused the test.
He reluctantly and with protest did as the officer asked. 86dB. The officer then told him it was above the 82dB limit and slapped him with a £30 Norfolk Police Beer fund voucher.
To make things worse he had a sticker on his car which said "I'd rather push my Honda than drive a Ford" which was for a bit of banter between him and his mate with a Zetec Fiesta. The officer took offensive to this sticker as he said he drove a Ford. My lads friend then queried the fact that the Road Traffic car was a Volvo, but the officer said that he had a Ford at home on his driveway. and he was to remove the sticker or be slapped with another offence of discrimination.
Unfortunately being an 18 year old naive driver, he payed up the fine, but said that he didn't agree with the way the officer dealt with him. The Central ticket office said that they would look into it, but have heard nothing back. Also the ticket the officer gave had a phone number on it which has not been used by Norfolk Police for over 2 years.
This really annoyed me that the bloody Police can do this and blatantly get away with it, and before you all ask, I still have not heard anything back about a court hearing with my little brush with them over exhaust noise.
Not BS at all, I saw the ticket which was issued. Seeing first hand on what Norfolk Police actually do on their exhaust noise tests and from talking to people who have had their vehicles tested it wouldn't surprise me if there were other similar stories.
They tested mine at 5250 RPM when it should have been 3750RP so anything is possible.
They tested mine at 5250 RPM when it should have been 3750RP so anything is possible.
rlw said:
Could someone please explain to me how this "law" about noise might be applied to a twenties or thirties Bentley with a f
king great big engine and no silencer boxes worthy of the name. This whole thing just seems so fking unreal and stupid. My (ex) GT3 easily made 100dB at 4000rpm and went much louder at higher revs but was completely standard.
The law was introduces in 1986 and relates to vehicles used on or after 1/10/83. so a 1920's Bentley would be OK. king great big engine and no silencer boxes worthy of the name. This whole thing just seems so fking unreal and stupid. My (ex) GT3 easily made 100dB at 4000rpm and went much louder at higher revs but was completely standard.anyway, After a long wait I have drop on my doorstep a court summons for Feb 2013 about "Using a vehicle with an exhaust system that has been modifies as to increase the noise made by the escape of exhaust gases"
My issue now is that, Yes I know that the exhaust is a modified exhaust and, Yes it is louder than a standard OEM system, but it still does not prove that the system is illegal as the Police check was done incorrectly and not in accordance to ISO5130.
Edited by Monkey boy 1 on Saturday 12th January 19:12
Sorry for not posting earlier, but it is still ongoing
I attended the court hearing as requested (my first time ever in court) and on arrival asked "How do I plea" which I replied "Not Guilty". Then after a 3 hour wait I actually got into court.
The Magistrates asked about my case and why I was pleading N.G. I gave them the run down on how I thought the test was done incorrectly and their comment was, " This sounds a bit technical" to which I apologised and said that it was.
When the prosecution were asked on their take of it, they thought I was pleading guilty and didn't have any information to back up their story as the police officers were not in attendance.
With that the Magistrates opted for a new date which is May 29th.
Today I received a letter asking if I wanted the officers who stopped me to be in attendance on that day?
So the plot continues to drag on so will have more to come back with at the end of May
I attended the court hearing as requested (my first time ever in court) and on arrival asked "How do I plea" which I replied "Not Guilty". Then after a 3 hour wait I actually got into court.
The Magistrates asked about my case and why I was pleading N.G. I gave them the run down on how I thought the test was done incorrectly and their comment was, " This sounds a bit technical" to which I apologised and said that it was.
When the prosecution were asked on their take of it, they thought I was pleading guilty and didn't have any information to back up their story as the police officers were not in attendance.
With that the Magistrates opted for a new date which is May 29th.
Today I received a letter asking if I wanted the officers who stopped me to be in attendance on that day?
So the plot continues to drag on so will have more to come back with at the end of May
NDA said:
What a giant feckin waste of time.
I'd rather my government confiscated cash was used more appropriately.
To be honest I couldn't agree more. I know that the Police hate going to court over, as they say, trivial £30 FPN's so I will be asking for both officers to attend.I'd rather my government confiscated cash was used more appropriately.
This whole thing has been going on since 12th Aug 2012 and they probably thought it's an easy £30 to get. I think they picked the wrong person to go up against.
Just to add confusion to the case, remembering that I am questioning the way in which my car was checked and the interpretation of the results not the fact that it has an aftermarket exhaust. I have just re-read the "Road vehicles Construction & use regulations 1986" Yes it states an 82dB(A) limit, but then you have to then hunt for the method of measurement for this test. Now this is hidden away on Commission Directive 81/334/EEC Paragraph 5.2.2.4.
Basically the 82dB(A) test as quotes in the Construction & use regs can only be attained in a drive by test, not a static test.
This has to be done on an approved Test track.
The static test as used by the Police as laid out in ISO5130 does not have a results table, so the figures the Police are using are cobbled together from various different sources to make their own standard up.
The plot thickens
Basically the 82dB(A) test as quotes in the Construction & use regs can only be attained in a drive by test, not a static test.
This has to be done on an approved Test track.
The static test as used by the Police as laid out in ISO5130 does not have a results table, so the figures the Police are using are cobbled together from various different sources to make their own standard up.
The plot thickens
herewego said:
You must have the test report from the police? It must show the rpm used for the test? You have a copy of standard ISO 5130. Can you find a statement for your car of the max. rated engine speed? If you highlight the relevant data in these documents and show it to the CPS they may cancel the prosecution and save you a lot of time.
In answer to the above.1.Yes I have the test report from the police.
2.Yes it shows the RPM at which they tested it. (5250RPM)
3.Yes I have a copy of ISO5130
4.My car, max power is delivered at 6850RPM, Red line is 7000RPM
ISO5130 Shows that a car with max power of between 5000 & 7500RPM should be tested at 3750RPM. (NOT 5250 as Plod did it at)
There are no figures for dB(A) output in the ISO5130 test procedure. The Road Traffic Construction & use Reg 1986 refers to a different test, that of which is a drive by test. NOT as static test.
So the facts I have:
Police statements has incorrect colour of my vehicle
Police statement has incorrect registration mark of my vehicle (court papers have correct Veh.Reg)
Police test cert states different RPM target to the quoted ISO5130 test.
Police form states dB on their form, it should state the correct dB(A) - There is a difference, believe me
The initial Police ticket was given out as "A vehicle exhaust making excessive noise", The Court papers say "Use of a motor vehicle with an altered silencer / exhaust" as in Construction & use regs 54 (2) Every exhaust system and silencer shall be maintained in good and efficient working order and shall not be altered so as to increase the noise made by the escape of exhaust gases.
That is the whole issue. An oppinion must be backed up with hard evidence and facts. If they did the test correctly the i wouldn't have a problem, but as they did it incorrectly to their own paperwork why shouls i roll over and submit.
I have had a solicitor look at the evidence and he said straight away that the test was done incorrectly according to the printed facts.
I have had a solicitor look at the evidence and he said straight away that the test was done incorrectly according to the printed facts.
Timsta said:
This is exactly why I read "Using a vehicle with an exhaust system that has been modifies as to increase the noise made by the escape of exhaust gases" to mean drilling holes in the exhaust and associated idiotic actions.
Hmm, not thought of that angle of approach to the wording. ging84 said:
I'm not sure that would form the grounds for a very good defence, i very much doubt the wording of that has a very strict meaning so that it would only apply to alterations made with the sole intention of increasing the noise or they'd struggle to get any prosecutions under it, but i'm sure your lawyer could tell you more definitively if it is something worth pursuing.
I think you are far better off attacking the evidence as faulty (because it clear is), To demonstrate this best you really need the stationary sound test reference value, one will definitely have been one taken for your vehicle for type approval.
The EU type approval stationary sound test is very similar to ISO 5130, main difference there is a flat rule of 75% of the rated rpm, but keep in mind the rated rpm is the book value for peak horse power not the rev limit (this applies equally to ISO 5130 - see 3.4). So the stationary test would have been done for your vehicle at somewhere between 4000 and 4500 depending on what the book value is. This is a little over the 3750 that is required by the police force's own test standard but still well below the rpm the test was actually run at and well outside the 5% variance allowed by ISO5130 and 3% allowed by the EU test. Although the reference value will almost certainly be lower than the reported sound level, it will clearly show the rpm for the test being much too high this should prove their test is invalid . Your lawyer should be able to advise you if it is your responsibility to get this for your defence or if it is up to the prosecution.
The statement that the legal limit is 82 and the threshold for prosecution being 90, is from what i can tell completely false, there is a mention of a 82dB(A) limit, but that is a drive by noise test not a stationary noise test which are done in a completely different manner and produce much lower readings. The 82dB(A) value is actually the limit for certain off-road vehicles drive by test and has nothing to do with normal passenger cars at all.
It maybe that the police force are able to choose an arbitrary sound level that they considered to be impossible from a standard car without an illegal exhaust alteration and use that for the basis of a prosecution, but clearly if these are the values they use for a static test, they are not very well thought out. To put it into context the stationary sound test value for my car, a 2005 mini cooper S is 88dB(A) at 4500rpm, and that is by no means the loudest car on the road, it's type approved yet illegal by norfolk police's standards although below the threshold at which they would prosecute. i've read somewhere that some Subarus and some bmw M3s have test values of 91dB(A) which would make owners of them liable for prosecution in Norfolk despite being type approved (possibly violating EU law / EU trade agreements).
Cars now i think are meant to have the sound test value printed in the log book (possibly from the 2001 emissions changes ) so if you can get some people with some loud cars (m3, scooby, tvr etc) to check their log books and if anyone has one showing 90dB(A) or above then perhaps you could get a copy of this and use it to demonstrate to the court quite how out of touch with reality these chosen limits are.
One final thing to remember is that the wording of the law here is specifically about noise, not sound, and noise is subjective, it is sometimes described as sound which causes nuisance or is damaging to health. I would check with your lawyer first, but i'd say if you are happy with the sound it makes and do not believe it causes a nuisance you should be able to stand up in court and honestly state that you do not believe it is more noisy than stock while still (perhaps silently) acknowledging that it may be slightly louder than stock.
Thanks Ging for the reply, some interesting points there. The main thing that the Police failed to account for is the RPM limit stated in ISO5130, for my vehicle which produces it's maximum power between 5000 & 7500 RPM, the limit set by the test is 3750 RPM, Norfolk plod checked it at 5250RPM. I think you are far better off attacking the evidence as faulty (because it clear is), To demonstrate this best you really need the stationary sound test reference value, one will definitely have been one taken for your vehicle for type approval.
The EU type approval stationary sound test is very similar to ISO 5130, main difference there is a flat rule of 75% of the rated rpm, but keep in mind the rated rpm is the book value for peak horse power not the rev limit (this applies equally to ISO 5130 - see 3.4). So the stationary test would have been done for your vehicle at somewhere between 4000 and 4500 depending on what the book value is. This is a little over the 3750 that is required by the police force's own test standard but still well below the rpm the test was actually run at and well outside the 5% variance allowed by ISO5130 and 3% allowed by the EU test. Although the reference value will almost certainly be lower than the reported sound level, it will clearly show the rpm for the test being much too high this should prove their test is invalid . Your lawyer should be able to advise you if it is your responsibility to get this for your defence or if it is up to the prosecution.
The statement that the legal limit is 82 and the threshold for prosecution being 90, is from what i can tell completely false, there is a mention of a 82dB(A) limit, but that is a drive by noise test not a stationary noise test which are done in a completely different manner and produce much lower readings. The 82dB(A) value is actually the limit for certain off-road vehicles drive by test and has nothing to do with normal passenger cars at all.
It maybe that the police force are able to choose an arbitrary sound level that they considered to be impossible from a standard car without an illegal exhaust alteration and use that for the basis of a prosecution, but clearly if these are the values they use for a static test, they are not very well thought out. To put it into context the stationary sound test value for my car, a 2005 mini cooper S is 88dB(A) at 4500rpm, and that is by no means the loudest car on the road, it's type approved yet illegal by norfolk police's standards although below the threshold at which they would prosecute. i've read somewhere that some Subarus and some bmw M3s have test values of 91dB(A) which would make owners of them liable for prosecution in Norfolk despite being type approved (possibly violating EU law / EU trade agreements).
Cars now i think are meant to have the sound test value printed in the log book (possibly from the 2001 emissions changes ) so if you can get some people with some loud cars (m3, scooby, tvr etc) to check their log books and if anyone has one showing 90dB(A) or above then perhaps you could get a copy of this and use it to demonstrate to the court quite how out of touch with reality these chosen limits are.
One final thing to remember is that the wording of the law here is specifically about noise, not sound, and noise is subjective, it is sometimes described as sound which causes nuisance or is damaging to health. I would check with your lawyer first, but i'd say if you are happy with the sound it makes and do not believe it causes a nuisance you should be able to stand up in court and honestly state that you do not believe it is more noisy than stock while still (perhaps silently) acknowledging that it may be slightly louder than stock.
They have also sneekily changed tact too,
Their initial paperwork says "Use of a motor vehicle causing unnecessary noise" as written on the £30 FPN I was given
Then the court summons says the charge is Use of a motor vehicle with an altered silencer / Exhaust system
Now there is a big difference to having a noisy exhaust and having one which is altered, this has got me a little worried to the fact is yes, the exhaust system is altered,but it according to Norfolk Police, if the officer deems that the system is non-standard, they can slap you with a FPN. even though the test they did was at the wrong target speed.
I have lots of information, too much to really go into on here, but all I am going to do is keep to the facts.
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