Free Speech (in the UK) an Oxymoron?

Free Speech (in the UK) an Oxymoron?

Author
Discussion

simoid

19,772 posts

157 months

Tuesday 9th October 2012
quotequote all
John145 said:
simoid said:
Anything?
Yes. As soon as you set limits, then you remove freedom.
Ah, so we should also be free to burgle, rape, murder etc too?

John145

2,447 posts

155 months

Tuesday 9th October 2012
quotequote all
ewenm said:
John145 said:
And if there was no law broken than no one would pay a blind bit of notice. Problem solved.
What problem? If you advocate fee speech, why would what anyone says be a problem? Can't have it both ways.
Free speech causes problems, but the problems caused are minuscule compared to the travesty of losing it.

John145

2,447 posts

155 months

Tuesday 9th October 2012
quotequote all
simoid said:
John145 said:
simoid said:
Anything?
Yes. As soon as you set limits, then you remove freedom.
Ah, so we should also be free to burgle, rape, murder etc too?
Well, that's the logical conclusion to the discussion.

Would you say in a discussion about derestricting motorways that doing so would be to advocate killing polar bears?

Remember we are talking about words, whether written or spoken. You can't kill someone through communication. Sticks and stones and what not...

Edited by John145 on Tuesday 9th October 22:09

simoid

19,772 posts

157 months

Tuesday 9th October 2012
quotequote all
John145 said:
simoid said:
John145 said:
simoid said:
Anything?
Yes. As soon as you set limits, then you remove freedom.
Ah, so we should also be free to burgle, rape, murder etc too?
Well, that's the logical conclusion to the discussion.

Would you say in a discussion about derestricting motorways that doing so would be to advocate killing polar bears?
Do I have a right not to hear certain things?

John145

2,447 posts

155 months

Tuesday 9th October 2012
quotequote all
simoid said:
Do I have a right not to hear certain things?
Well you control where your eyes are pointing, what room you're in, who you associate with. Should the police be required to make sure you don't put yourself into situations that make you uncomfortable?

ewenm

28,506 posts

244 months

Tuesday 9th October 2012
quotequote all
John145 said:
Free speech causes problems, but the problems caused are minuscule compared to the travesty of losing it.
Maybe those that cause the problems should be held responsible for them. Personal responsibility, it seems an unpopular concept nowadays.

If someone behaves like an idiot, they should expect to be treated like an idiot.

John145

2,447 posts

155 months

Tuesday 9th October 2012
quotequote all
ewenm said:
John145 said:
Free speech causes problems, but the problems caused are minuscule compared to the travesty of losing it.
Maybe those that cause the problems should be held responsible for them. Personal responsibility, it seems an unpopular concept nowadays.

If someone behaves like an idiot, they should expect to be treated like an idiot.
There's a difference between an idiot and a criminal.

simoid

19,772 posts

157 months

Tuesday 9th October 2012
quotequote all
John145 said:
simoid said:
Do I have a right not to hear certain things?
Well you control where your eyes are pointing, what room you're in, who you associate with. Should the police be required to make sure you don't put yourself into situations that make you uncomfortable?
What if I am sharing a bus with someone who happens to be practising 'complete free speech'? Should my only remedy be to exit the bus before my intended destination, or should the law perhaps set some limits on what is acceptable behaviour?

ewenm

28,506 posts

244 months

Tuesday 9th October 2012
quotequote all
John145 said:
ewenm said:
John145 said:
Free speech causes problems, but the problems caused are minuscule compared to the travesty of losing it.
Maybe those that cause the problems should be held responsible for them. Personal responsibility, it seems an unpopular concept nowadays.

If someone behaves like an idiot, they should expect to be treated like an idiot.
There's a difference between an idiot and a criminal.
And your opinion on my main point about being held responsible for the problems caused by your actions?

John145

2,447 posts

155 months

Tuesday 9th October 2012
quotequote all
simoid said:
John145 said:
simoid said:
Do I have a right not to hear certain things?
Well you control where your eyes are pointing, what room you're in, who you associate with. Should the police be required to make sure you don't put yourself into situations that make you uncomfortable?
What if I am sharing a bus with someone who happens to be practising 'complete free speech'? Should my only remedy be to exit the bus before my intended destination, or should the law perhaps set some limits on what is acceptable behaviour?
I think the abbreviation MTFU would suffice. Challenge them? Or you could just run away or call the police to protect you from someone expressing their opinion.

I have been on the bus with complete nutters who are spouting all sorts of random st, I'm quite happy to sit there and let them get on with it.

simoid

19,772 posts

157 months

Tuesday 9th October 2012
quotequote all
ewenm said:
And your opinion on my main point...
Me first, ME FIRST biggrin

John145

2,447 posts

155 months

Tuesday 9th October 2012
quotequote all
ewenm said:
And your opinion on my main point about being held responsible for the problems caused by your actions?
If you offend someone through words and they come round your house and shoot you in the face, this not a form of suicide. They are a murderer.

Catch my drift?

Maybe the world is still too uneducated for freedom of speech.

Red Devil

13,055 posts

207 months

Tuesday 9th October 2012
quotequote all
mercfunder said:
"I do not agree with disapprove of what you have to say, but I 'll will defend to the death your right to say it."
Voltaire Evelyn Beatrice Hall - The Friends of Voltaire
Fixed that for you. smile


The judge who jailed Matthew Woods seems to be a member of the Lamar Burgess fan club. Unfortunately he doesn't seem to have stayed to watch the ending.

simoid

19,772 posts

157 months

Tuesday 9th October 2012
quotequote all
John145 said:
simoid said:
John145 said:
simoid said:
Do I have a right not to hear certain things?
Well you control where your eyes are pointing, what room you're in, who you associate with. Should the police be required to make sure you don't put yourself into situations that make you uncomfortable?
What if I am sharing a bus with someone who happens to be practising 'complete free speech'? Should my only remedy be to exit the bus before my intended destination, or should the law perhaps set some limits on what is acceptable behaviour?
I think the abbreviation MTFU would suffice. Challenge them? Or you could just run away or call the police to protect you from someone expressing their opinion.

I have been on the bus with complete nutters who are spouting all sorts of random st, I'm quite happy to sit there and let them get on with it.
OK, so if someone threatens me on a bus, tells me they have a knife, that they will stab me if I don't walk with them to the nearest cashpoint, that's ok? Because that's freedom of speech, right?

I'm at fault and should "man the fk up" and challenge them?

My Granny should also "man the fk up" and challenge them?

Not all speech is acceptable.

John145

2,447 posts

155 months

Tuesday 9th October 2012
quotequote all
simoid said:
John145 said:
simoid said:
John145 said:
simoid said:
Do I have a right not to hear certain things?
Well you control where your eyes are pointing, what room you're in, who you associate with. Should the police be required to make sure you don't put yourself into situations that make you uncomfortable?
What if I am sharing a bus with someone who happens to be practising 'complete free speech'? Should my only remedy be to exit the bus before my intended destination, or should the law perhaps set some limits on what is acceptable behaviour?
I think the abbreviation MTFU would suffice. Challenge them? Or you could just run away or call the police to protect you from someone expressing their opinion.

I have been on the bus with complete nutters who are spouting all sorts of random st, I'm quite happy to sit there and let them get on with it.
OK, so if someone threatens me on a bus, tells me they have a knife, that they will stab me if I don't walk with them to the nearest cashpoint, that's ok? Because that's freedom of speech, right?

I'm at fault and should "man the fk up" and challenge them?

My Granny should also "man the fk up" and challenge them?

Not all speech is acceptable.
Urm, think you are confusing freedom of speech and expression with assault.

Nevermind...

ewenm

28,506 posts

244 months

Tuesday 9th October 2012
quotequote all
John145 said:
If you offend someone through words and they come round your house and shoot you in the face, this not a form of suicide. They are a murderer.

Catch my drift?

Maybe the world is still too uneducated for freedom of speech.
awooga awooga! Straw man alert! Awooga awooga!

If you cause genuine serious distress to someone through your "free speech" should they have any way of holding you responsible for that distress you've caused or should they just MTFU? Note: "genuine" and "serious".

At what point does free speech become harassment? At what point does it become threatening? Or is it always enshrined regardless?

simoid

19,772 posts

157 months

Tuesday 9th October 2012
quotequote all
John145 said:
Urm, think you are confusing freedom of speech and expression with assault.

Nevermind...
No assault, merely someone saying some words.

So you agree there should be restrictions on freedom of speech then. Glad we sorted that one out.


simoid

19,772 posts

157 months

Tuesday 9th October 2012
quotequote all
ewenm said:
...is it always enshrined regardless?
John145 said:
Yes. As soon as you set limits, then you remove freedom.

John145

2,447 posts

155 months

Tuesday 9th October 2012
quotequote all
So the examples you two think of have nothing to do with the reason this thread was started?

The reason these people were convicted as criminals was because they said something that hurt someone else's feelings. This, in my opinion, is not criminality.

technogogo

401 posts

183 months

Tuesday 9th October 2012
quotequote all
We boil down to a contest between the right to possibly offend versus the right to not be offended.

For me the former wins because if you favour the latter, anyone can claim offence, or worse, cite offence in some unproven third party and exert control. This is frequently used to maintain vested interest.

The draw back is you will hear things that you don't like. But at least you learn about who holds certain views. Which can be very worthwhile. Eg NF politicians appearing dumb on national TV.