You MUST have a 'box' installed before insuring you - wtf?
Discussion
Durzel said:
Time for a rant...
I have to say I'm broadly in favour of these black boxes. For starters you can choose not to have them, you can insure your car for more money with someone else.
Secondly I would make the argument that the idea that everyone's risk is the same for every car is not granular enough in this day and age. Someone commuting into the centre of London is treated the same as someone who drives the same number of miles per year along quiet country roads. Driving in rush hour is treated the same as driving when most people are already in work. These black box insurance policies aren't for everyone, and have never been billed as such, but for Doris just popping out to bingo once a week or a student who would otherwise have to pay a massive premium because the system isn't granular enough to measure their risk properly - it's great.
IF they're used as you suggest, then absolutely they're a great idea. However, this is the very thin end of the wedge for reasons the OP has suggested.I have to say I'm broadly in favour of these black boxes. For starters you can choose not to have them, you can insure your car for more money with someone else.
Secondly I would make the argument that the idea that everyone's risk is the same for every car is not granular enough in this day and age. Someone commuting into the centre of London is treated the same as someone who drives the same number of miles per year along quiet country roads. Driving in rush hour is treated the same as driving when most people are already in work. These black box insurance policies aren't for everyone, and have never been billed as such, but for Doris just popping out to bingo once a week or a student who would otherwise have to pay a massive premium because the system isn't granular enough to measure their risk properly - it's great.
ZOLLAR said:
False advertising apart from the fact it's on the front page in writing on the very first paragraph 
It's hardly the insurers fault if you're too lazy to read the very first page of their website.
It is if they don't state "you MUST have one of our 'optional' boxes fitted otherwise we won't insure you". It's hardly the insurers fault if you're too lazy to read the very first page of their website.
Instead of that they make you go through the whole process then mention that at the end in the hope you'll just cough up the cash because you don't want to go through all the hassle all over again.
Centurion07 said:
ZOLLAR said:
False advertising apart from the fact it's on the front page in writing on the very first paragraph
It's hardly the insurers fault if you're too lazy to read the very first page of their website.
It is if they don't state "you MUST have one of our 'optional' boxes fitted otherwise we won't insure you". It's hardly the insurers fault if you're too lazy to read the very first page of their website.
Instead of that they make you go through the whole process then mention that at the end in the hope you'll just cough up the cash because you don't want to go through all the hassle all over again.
ZOLLAR said:
Bell still offer policies without the box but on a different quote,
No they don't. I phoned twice and asked. They will not insure you at all unless you have one of these things installed.Phone them right now and ask - you'll get same response as I did. Fit it to the car or go away, plain and simple.
Anubis said:
ZOLLAR said:
Bell still offer policies without the box but on a different quote,
No they don't. I phoned twice and asked. They will not insure you at all unless you have one of these things installed.Phone them right now and ask - you'll get same response as I did. Fit it to the car or go away, plain and simple.
ZOLLAR said:
I'll just walk over but I know what they'll say..
Please do - if you're working with them please ask what the deal is with this thing and reply back with full correct details. 
I asked two different people and both said you have to have it, otherwise you're not covered and will not get insurance from them. I asked if it was possible to get it without and they both clearly stated 'no'.KarlMac said:
What if I want one of these fitted to a brand new car, does it invalidate my warranty? Should it be fitted by the dealer?
"The unit is compatible with any type of car and will not affect manufacturer or aftermarket warranties that may apply to the insured vehicle."KarlMac said:
What happens when I sell the car, is it my responsibilty to inform the new order theres a data logger installed?
What if after 12 months you don't want to renew your insurance? Do they charge you for the box, or does some half price auto electrician come and rip it out?
"You should not attempt to remove the Telematic Unit from the vehicle yourself as it will have been integrated into your vehicle. We will not be responsible for any damage to the insured vehicle caused by de-installation of the Telematic Unit by you or anyone acting on your behalf."What if after 12 months you don't want to renew your insurance? Do they charge you for the box, or does some half price auto electrician come and rip it out?
"If you decide to cancel your policy at renewal, the unit will be left in place in a disconnected state and will not collect or transmit any data. In these cases you will not be charged. If you wish for the unit to be de-installed then a charge will apply to cover call out and removal charges."
crashley said:
On another note, so what happens if they see you're a regular "offender" ? Will they boost your premium for the year you're insured or just whack it up if you try to renew? Will that data be allowed to be passed on (i would certainly presume not)... however, they could then deny you insurance on the basis of your driving - one of the questions you are asked by ALL insurers if i'm correct?
Some interesting snippets:"If when you purchased the policy you agreed to a review point six months into the policy, we will compare your driving score to that of other Safe Driver policy customers, [...] If you have agreed to the relevant review point, you will receive an additional discount if you are in the top 25% of drivers. If they agreed to purchase this version of the product, customers in the bottom 25% will see an increase in premium, which will be charged to the payment method we hold on file."
"We also use information from the unit to check the accuracy of information you have declared to us when you purchased the policy. We reserve the right to adjust or correct policy information relating to your annual mileage, where your vehicle is kept overnight and what your car is used for"
"As this is a Safe Driver policy, dangerous speeds are treated seriously. As a result, if the Telematic Unit detects that your vehicle has been driven at 100mph or over on a public road, your policy will be cancelled."
Anubis said:
BELL: "OK sir, we have a policy whereby we send a qualified engineer around to fit a new device we have that keeps track of your progress. We reward you after the year if you have not had any incidents or claims".
Well they already get this information because either you or another insurance company contacts them saying there has been a crash incident involving you / our client driver.Secondly raw data on it's own is useless.
case 1)
Driving along minding own business. Someone steps out without looking. Stand on brakes, screech to halt, avoid hitting them. Well Done. Oh No - the Ins. Co. will see this as harsh braking and not paying attention or aggressive driving.
case 2)
Driving along minding own business. Car pulls out of side road in front of you. Too late to brake, you swerve and avoid hitting them or anything else. Well Done. Oh No - the Ins. Co. will see this as hard steering and .....
See where this is going ?
over_the_hill said:
...
See where this is going ?
Unfortunately I can hence the post. I cannot believe people are being tricked into this.See where this is going ?
It's completely different if they offer it with clear and easy to read print. If it's not such a big deal to customers, why make the print so small and hidden in their terms? If its such a great thing to have why not splash it all over your website stating it lowers your premium?
We're not stupid and we all know why - it's a device that generates money for them. I'm waiting for Zollars feedback; I assume he works with them...
ZOLLAR said:
Bell still offer policies without the box but on a different quote, the price the op wanted would have had to been the box option as such he wouldn't have been able to have that premium if he didn't agree to have it installed.
Which is fair enough, but not making that clear right until the end is a bit sneaky do you not agree?
Thin end of the wedge IMO. In 5 years I predict that it will be difficult to find car insurance where a black box isn't mandatory. I'd rather be judged on my claims/accident history than my diving/journey habits. Seems fairer to me.
Presumably the law will also have access to the data it collects, not just for driving offences, but also proving where you were at any particular time. I wonder how many G's they will set the dangerous driving threshold at?
Also, once the majority of cars get these fitted, it won't take long for the govt. to jump in and decide to use it for road charging.
Presumably the law will also have access to the data it collects, not just for driving offences, but also proving where you were at any particular time. I wonder how many G's they will set the dangerous driving threshold at?
Also, once the majority of cars get these fitted, it won't take long for the govt. to jump in and decide to use it for road charging.
Anubis said:
Please do - if you're working with them please ask what the deal is with this thing and reply back with full correct details. I asked two different people and both said you have to have it, otherwise you're not covered and will not get insurance from them. I asked if it was possible to get it without and they both clearly stated 'no'.
If the old one is still available I imagine it's because they get more commission for flogging the "safe driver" policy than a standard one, and so would rather deny the other one exists in the hope of "forcing" people onto the telematics policy. I asked two different people and both said you have to have it, otherwise you're not covered and will not get insurance from them. I asked if it was possible to get it without and they both clearly stated 'no'.Anubis said:
Unfortunately I can hence the post. I cannot believe people are being tricked into this.
It's completely different if they offer it with clear and easy to read print. If it's not such a big deal to customers, why make the print so small and hidden in their terms? If its such a great thing to have why not splash it all over your website stating it lowers your premium?
We're not stupid and we all know why - it's a device that generates money for them. I'm waiting for Zollars feedback; I assume he works with them...
I can believe that people are being tricked into this because people are gullible. I've seen those advertisements on TV the same as you have - "a way to reward safe drivers like you." "Because "I'm a safe driver, aren't I - its all the other idiots on the road that are the problem" It's completely different if they offer it with clear and easy to read print. If it's not such a big deal to customers, why make the print so small and hidden in their terms? If its such a great thing to have why not splash it all over your website stating it lowers your premium?
We're not stupid and we all know why - it's a device that generates money for them. I'm waiting for Zollars feedback; I assume he works with them...
They'll stop being so fecking gullible after the machine clocks them at 80+ on a motorway sometime, but by then its too late. The machine has been installed.
You can see parallels with speed cameras. At the time of their introduction there were many who supported them "because it would get the nutters off the road." Then they found that they themselves were the nutters who were being nicked for doing 47 in a 40.
Whilst I fully understand that insurance companies might want to match premiums more closely to risk, at the end of the day they are in the risk business. If they could calculate precisely how much they will pay out on your behalf, and then charge you that amount every year plus 20% or so as a "little something" for their trouble, there ceases to be a risk involved.
I'm with those on this thread who have suggested that there are such things as the thin end of wedges. Bell is now on my list of companies with whom I will not do business.
Edited by rs1952 on Tuesday 16th October 11:34
So these could be used to reduce my sons insurance policy cost, but as a young driver they often have an 11pm - 5am curfew, often with a penalty for contravening.
So...... What if he was stuck in a traffic jam on the M25 due to a major crash, and it takes some hours to clear and takes him into the curfew? Not his fault but will he forfeit?
What if I needed to take my other child to hospital in the middle of the night, and his was the only car available and I am driving under my own insurance, not his? How do we prove it was me and not him driving so he doesnt get shafted?
So...... What if he was stuck in a traffic jam on the M25 due to a major crash, and it takes some hours to clear and takes him into the curfew? Not his fault but will he forfeit?
What if I needed to take my other child to hospital in the middle of the night, and his was the only car available and I am driving under my own insurance, not his? How do we prove it was me and not him driving so he doesnt get shafted?
Anubis said:
Unfortunately I can hence the post. I cannot believe people are being tricked into this.
It's completely different if they offer it with clear and easy to read print. If it's not such a big deal to customers, why make the print so small and hidden in their terms? If its such a great thing to have why not splash it all over your website stating it lowers your premium?
We're not stupid and we all know why - it's a device that generates money for them. I'm waiting for Zollars feedback; I assume he works with them...
Ok I'm right and wrong (doesn't happen that often) for 12 month policies they are telematics only but that it may be possible for you to obtain one of the 10 month accelrator policies without the box.It's completely different if they offer it with clear and easy to read print. If it's not such a big deal to customers, why make the print so small and hidden in their terms? If its such a great thing to have why not splash it all over your website stating it lowers your premium?
We're not stupid and we all know why - it's a device that generates money for them. I'm waiting for Zollars feedback; I assume he works with them...
The launch for the telematics only insurance was fairly recent so as I don't work in sales it's not something I was aware of.
One thing I would suggest is if you feel the wording isn't clear enough contact them and make it apparent to a manager, a company can only improve it self when they're made aware of problems by the very people who buy their product
So to sum up Bell from Admiral are telematics only (unless 10 month for the moment I have no doubt this'll change and probably very soon) if you're not happy with something even if you're not a customer still bring it up so it can be reviewed.
Six Fiend said:
Until this box can tell that some idiot is doing 65mph 2 inches from the car in front on the motorway in thick fog then I'm not convinced it knows what safe driving is...
Exactly. What can it tell? I imagine it'll be a GPS box with various accelerometers - nothing more.
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