You MUST have a 'box' installed before insuring you - wtf?
Discussion
SeeFive said:
Take cheap insurance and have it installed. Make another box out of lead. Put this lead box around their box. Drive however you like... but within the law of course.
Unfortunately, that will not get around the accelerometers that are built into the box - they may not know where but they'll know you've been driving somewhere like a t
t....Gareth79 said:
Some interesting snippets:
"If you have agreed to the relevant review point, you will receive an additional discount if you are in the top 25% of drivers. If they agreed to purchase this version of the product, customers in the bottom 25% will see an increase in premium, which will be charged to the payment method we hold on file."
"We also use information from the unit to check the accuracy of information you have declared to us when you purchased the policy. We reserve the right to adjust or correct policy information relating to your annual mileage, where your vehicle is kept overnight and what your car is used for"
"As this is a Safe Driver policy, dangerous speeds are treated seriously. As a result, if the Telematic Unit detects that your vehicle has been driven at 100mph or over on a public road, your policy will be cancelled."
Thanks for that. Still not convinced that if you turned up at your local BMW/Audi dealer with an intermittant electrical fault they'd just blame it on the box. Didn't they do this with third party trackers/alarms in years gone by?"If you have agreed to the relevant review point, you will receive an additional discount if you are in the top 25% of drivers. If they agreed to purchase this version of the product, customers in the bottom 25% will see an increase in premium, which will be charged to the payment method we hold on file."
"We also use information from the unit to check the accuracy of information you have declared to us when you purchased the policy. We reserve the right to adjust or correct policy information relating to your annual mileage, where your vehicle is kept overnight and what your car is used for"
"As this is a Safe Driver policy, dangerous speeds are treated seriously. As a result, if the Telematic Unit detects that your vehicle has been driven at 100mph or over on a public road, your policy will be cancelled."
The quote above sort of proves its not about saving you money, but screwing you out of more mid policy. The top 25/bottom 25 is hokum? What if all their policy holders are 'good'?
triumphkryten said:
Unfortunately, that will not get around the accelerometers that are built into the box - they may not know where but they'll know you've been driving somewhere like a tt....
This is one of my points. t....We literally have no idea what this thing is doing, recording or sending. Driving data could mean anything - where you are, how you drive, when you drive - screw that. One minute they are monitoring one thing to base their premiums on, when their fianncial numbers start falling they change it again so it works in their favour.
That's not how you treat customers with a written contract. Both parties agree to the terms and work within the conditions until the contract is over. This thing is bending the rules as the contract goes on in terms of what could be monitored.
You don't have to be doing anything illegal but one day it may pop up saying you're a dangerous driver (high revs? higher than normal g-forces?). Then as a previous poster commented, what happens when someone else takes ownership or you switch insurance companies? How can they garuantee it stops doing whatever it does? Who pays for it to be safely removed? What if you experience electrical issues afterwards?
It's just a really bad thing to have in the car in my eyes. If you wanna snoop on people, sit your bum on the passenger seat and be done with it. At least a human and determine how safe something actually is.
triumphkryten said:
SeeFive said:
Take cheap insurance and have it installed. Make another box out of lead. Put this lead box around their box. Drive however you like... but within the law of course.
Unfortunately, that will not get around the accelerometers that are built into the box - they may not know where but they'll know you've been driving somewhere like a tt....If it transmits, the lead will stop it, so accelerometer data will register but not be transmitted.
SeeFive said:
triumphkryten said:
SeeFive said:
Take cheap insurance and have it installed. Make another box out of lead. Put this lead box around their box. Drive however you like... but within the law of course.
Unfortunately, that will not get around the accelerometers that are built into the box - they may not know where but they'll know you've been driving somewhere like a tt....If it transmits, the lead will stop it, so accelerometer data will register but not be transmitted.
Why would you pay money for insurance then do something that breaks the contract and possibly put you in a serious financial situation? bizarre..
How would people feel if they had to have a box fitted that simply recorded, but had to be recovered before the data could be read? Hence, only in the event of a claim would driving styles be known.
It works in aircraft and big ships, and is used mainly to verify the cause of an accident.
I am not in favour of being routinely tracked, although with the plethora of CCTV I guess it can be done pretty effectively already (but only by those with authority to do so).
It works in aircraft and big ships, and is used mainly to verify the cause of an accident.
I am not in favour of being routinely tracked, although with the plethora of CCTV I guess it can be done pretty effectively already (but only by those with authority to do so).
It seems several people (the OP included) have misunderstood the word "product". The "product" is the whole package: the insurance, the box, all the Ts and Cs, plus any other perks there may be. Bell are offering "the product" in its entirety; if you don't like part of the product, then you are free to choose not to buy the entire product. But they are not offering to let you pick and choose which features of the product you want.
Gareth79 said:
Some interesting snippets:
"If when you purchased the policy you agreed to a review point six months into the policy, we will compare your driving score to that of other Safe Driver policy customers, [...] If you have agreed to the relevant review point, you will receive an additional discount if you are in the top 25% of drivers. If they agreed to purchase this version of the product, customers in the bottom 25% will see an increase in premium, which will be charged to the payment method we hold on file."
"We also use information from the unit to check the accuracy of information you have declared to us when you purchased the policy. We reserve the right to adjust or correct policy information relating to your annual mileage, where your vehicle is kept overnight and what your car is used for"
"As this is a Safe Driver policy, dangerous speeds are treated seriously. As a result, if the Telematic Unit detects that your vehicle has been driven at 100mph or over on a public road, your policy will be cancelled."
Nobody is perfect and we all make mistakes, so where you might have "gotten away with it" in the past, this box is there to punish you and what's the betting that the 100mph doesn't become 70mph in a few years?"If when you purchased the policy you agreed to a review point six months into the policy, we will compare your driving score to that of other Safe Driver policy customers, [...] If you have agreed to the relevant review point, you will receive an additional discount if you are in the top 25% of drivers. If they agreed to purchase this version of the product, customers in the bottom 25% will see an increase in premium, which will be charged to the payment method we hold on file."
"We also use information from the unit to check the accuracy of information you have declared to us when you purchased the policy. We reserve the right to adjust or correct policy information relating to your annual mileage, where your vehicle is kept overnight and what your car is used for"
"As this is a Safe Driver policy, dangerous speeds are treated seriously. As a result, if the Telematic Unit detects that your vehicle has been driven at 100mph or over on a public road, your policy will be cancelled."
Too arbitary and restrictive by far! As others have said - does an emergency rush to the hospital mean that your policy is cancelled and that they're going to inform others on the insurance database of this? (Thereby removing your chance of getting insured with anyone else)!
Dr Mike Oxgreen said:
It seems several people (the OP included) have misunderstood the word "product". The "product" is the whole package: the insurance, the box, all the Ts and Cs, plus any other perks there may be. Bell are offering "the product" in its entirety; if you don't like part of the product, then you are free to choose not to buy the entire product. But they are not offering to let you pick and choose which features of the product you want.
The same principle that Ryanair offers you 'products' but forgets to mention various terms and charges. I believe they have been called upon several times for underhand tactics - the same surely applies here no?At least Ryanair states throughout the process at the very end what additional charges are (i.e. card charges, additional weight, etc) even though it is sneaky, yet an insurance company can sell you a device that monitors your driving by putting very very small light grey text on a website and salesman talks fast and just says "do you agree?" afterwards.
Many many people will get caught out by this, have it installed and potentially invalidating their insurance, have god knows what data transmitted about them and rack up data for an expensive renewal based on being different to 'others driving habits'.
daz3210 said:
How would people feel if they had to have a box fitted that simply recorded, but had to be recovered before the data could be read? Hence, only in the event of a claim would driving styles be known.
It works in aircraft and big ships, and is used mainly to verify the cause of an accident.
I am not in favour of being routinely tracked, although with the plethora of CCTV I guess it can be done pretty effectively already (but only by those with authority to do so).
Aircraft black boxes record inputs from the controls - I can't see a retrofit insurance jobbie doing that in a car. It works in aircraft and big ships, and is used mainly to verify the cause of an accident.
I am not in favour of being routinely tracked, although with the plethora of CCTV I guess it can be done pretty effectively already (but only by those with authority to do so).
MadMark911 said:
does an emergency rush to the hospital mean that your policy is cancelled and that the're going to inform others on the insurance database of this?
Or, perhaps more likely, you do a track day and their box isn't accurate enough to pinpoint your exact location and they refuse to accept your explanation?Podie said:
Aircraft black boxes record inputs from the controls - I can't see a retrofit insurance jobbie doing that in a car.
Maybe not a black box of exactly that type then, but something that works in a similar way in that the data is recorded but not transmitted.Having said that, aren't a lot of cars 'fly by wire' these days, how hard would it be to record throttle settings, revs etc? Surely everything else could come from accelerometers. You never know, this 'Bell Box' could be designed to do this anyway, but also transmit it.
mat777 said:
Presumably these boxes talk to the ECU to gather throttle inputs, revs, braking and speed etc.
Wonder how they'd get on trying to fit one to a mechanical classic car?
Especially if its positive earth. Could be interesting watching the trained monkey after he fries a few boxes Wonder how they'd get on trying to fit one to a mechanical classic car?
Anubis said:
Many many people will get caught out by this, have it installed and potentially invalidating their insurance
I don't see how anybody is going to be "caught out" by this. Potential new customers discover it either by reading the web site or during the phone call (as you did), and existing renewal customers will find out when Bell contact them to make an appointment to fit the box - at which point they'll know that the Ts and Cs have changed so they'll choose not to renew the product.And how will having a box fitted to your car, mandated by your insurance, invalidate your insurance?? I'm hazarding a guess that Bell won't count their own box as an undeclared mod!
ZOLLAR said:
SeeFive said:
triumphkryten said:
SeeFive said:
Take cheap insurance and have it installed. Make another box out of lead. Put this lead box around their box. Drive however you like... but within the law of course.
Unfortunately, that will not get around the accelerometers that are built into the box - they may not know where but they'll know you've been driving somewhere like a tt....If it transmits, the lead will stop it, so accelerometer data will register but not be transmitted.
Why would you pay money for insurance then do something that breaks the contract and possibly put you in a serious financial situation? bizarre..
It is not being touched, the area it is installed in is simply being "protected" from batterings from other stuff in the car, or stopping mice gnawing at it, cleaning up aesthetics - whatever excuse you want, it's your car, and you are not tampering with their device.
Just prior to inspection to find the fault on the box, the protective box can be removed to allow the engineer to see that the box is as original as it was when installed. Then shortly after, the "protection" can be re-installed.
This game can continue as long as they want to waste money on inspectors being sent out to look at it.
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