You MUST have a 'box' installed before insuring you - wtf?
Discussion
I rang up my previous insurer (Bell) yesterday after receiving a decent quote online.
With my payment card in my hand ready to hand over hundreds of my hard earned you'd think any company would jump at the chance to take my cash - no convictions, no claims, decent amount of years NCB, sensible car, bla bla bla.
I was on the phone for about 5-10 minutes with "hi I'm James <surname> but you can call me Jamie", double checking I've put everything correct online and has all the perks I need. We get to the final bit before they ask what my card details are to make the payment until...
BELL: "OK sir, we have a policy whereby we send a qualified engineer around to fit a new device we have that keeps track of your progress. We reward you after the year if you have not had any incidents or claims".
ME: "Er...you what?" - now frantically clicking the back button on my browser window making sure I haven't missed this part. Nope, nothing mentioned about this - 'maybe it is a sales tactic; just say no' I think to myself.
ME: "No thanks, I just want car insurance like everyone else. Nothing fitted to my car thank you". I was expecting to skip this part and then finally pay for my damn car insurance - again, Jamie replies...
BELL: "It's our policy that has been running since June that we fit your car with this device. It's had no problems with any of our existing customers and I cannot continue unless you agree to this"
ME: "You won't sell me car insurance unless I have someone come around my house, cut cables in my car and fit a device that's going to end up spying on me? You're kidding right?"
BELL: "No sir. All our technicians are qualified and you won't have any issues"
ME: "But that's not the point. I don't want a little black box fitted to my car transmitting data to you guys. You honestly won't just sell the car insurance without this?"
BELL: "No sir its been our policy since June. It does not record any personal data and you will end up benefitting if you make no claims"
By this point I am really angry because literally NOTHING was stated anywhere I could find on their site I had to have the 'Big Brother' box fitted to my car. I promptly told the sales chap this is terrible and should offer it on the side and not a mandatory requirement and hung up.
I honestly couldn't believe it. I phoned again and asked a different person about this mystery tracking box thing and they confirmed you HAVE TO have it, otherwise you can basically get lost. I can see why some MAY want it, but for me I don't - I don't like the idea of this thing in my car, taking power, sending data I can't see back to some Insurance overlord HQ so they can eventually say "oops - we see you went over 70MPH quite often throughout the year, so your a higher risk and we want to charge you for it" or "You mostly drive at night and so thats a higher risk" - kerrrr ching! thank you sir.
As for 'no personal data being transmitted' that may well be correct. However every damn box thing will have a unique ID that relates to you - hence they know exactly what you do, when you do it, where you park, how you drive and everything else!!!
I'll never ever feel comfortable in my own car with this thing keeping check on me.
I pray to the big man upstairs that this is some terrible fad they are going through and other insurers will dismiss it. Unfortunately knowing insurance companies they'll all probably jump at the chance and if I ever have to have this 'big brother' box fitted to my car because the law states it I will quit driving altogether.
I went with their sister company Admiral instead. No stupid spy box; just me, my car and a bit of paper saying i am insured.
Has anyone else heard of such a thing? If you're with Bell I would phone them and ask what this is all about before you accept a new policy...
EDIT: Policy can be read here
With my payment card in my hand ready to hand over hundreds of my hard earned you'd think any company would jump at the chance to take my cash - no convictions, no claims, decent amount of years NCB, sensible car, bla bla bla.
I was on the phone for about 5-10 minutes with "hi I'm James <surname> but you can call me Jamie", double checking I've put everything correct online and has all the perks I need. We get to the final bit before they ask what my card details are to make the payment until...
BELL: "OK sir, we have a policy whereby we send a qualified engineer around to fit a new device we have that keeps track of your progress. We reward you after the year if you have not had any incidents or claims".
ME: "Er...you what?" - now frantically clicking the back button on my browser window making sure I haven't missed this part. Nope, nothing mentioned about this - 'maybe it is a sales tactic; just say no' I think to myself.
ME: "No thanks, I just want car insurance like everyone else. Nothing fitted to my car thank you". I was expecting to skip this part and then finally pay for my damn car insurance - again, Jamie replies...
BELL: "It's our policy that has been running since June that we fit your car with this device. It's had no problems with any of our existing customers and I cannot continue unless you agree to this"
ME: "You won't sell me car insurance unless I have someone come around my house, cut cables in my car and fit a device that's going to end up spying on me? You're kidding right?"
BELL: "No sir. All our technicians are qualified and you won't have any issues"
ME: "But that's not the point. I don't want a little black box fitted to my car transmitting data to you guys. You honestly won't just sell the car insurance without this?"
BELL: "No sir its been our policy since June. It does not record any personal data and you will end up benefitting if you make no claims"
By this point I am really angry because literally NOTHING was stated anywhere I could find on their site I had to have the 'Big Brother' box fitted to my car. I promptly told the sales chap this is terrible and should offer it on the side and not a mandatory requirement and hung up.
I honestly couldn't believe it. I phoned again and asked a different person about this mystery tracking box thing and they confirmed you HAVE TO have it, otherwise you can basically get lost. I can see why some MAY want it, but for me I don't - I don't like the idea of this thing in my car, taking power, sending data I can't see back to some Insurance overlord HQ so they can eventually say "oops - we see you went over 70MPH quite often throughout the year, so your a higher risk and we want to charge you for it" or "You mostly drive at night and so thats a higher risk" - kerrrr ching! thank you sir.
As for 'no personal data being transmitted' that may well be correct. However every damn box thing will have a unique ID that relates to you - hence they know exactly what you do, when you do it, where you park, how you drive and everything else!!!
I'll never ever feel comfortable in my own car with this thing keeping check on me.
I pray to the big man upstairs that this is some terrible fad they are going through and other insurers will dismiss it. Unfortunately knowing insurance companies they'll all probably jump at the chance and if I ever have to have this 'big brother' box fitted to my car because the law states it I will quit driving altogether.
I went with their sister company Admiral instead. No stupid spy box; just me, my car and a bit of paper saying i am insured.
Has anyone else heard of such a thing? If you're with Bell I would phone them and ask what this is all about before you accept a new policy...
EDIT: Policy can be read here
Edited by Anubis on Tuesday 16th October 12:42
There is an option box on the confused.com website asking if you would be willing to have one of these boxes installed to "lower your premium", can't remember if it's enabled by default but every time I see it I just think "screw that"
Not that it will actually lower your premium, all it would be used for is to raise the premums of anybody who doesn't drive Miss Daisy
Not that it will actually lower your premium, all it would be used for is to raise the premums of anybody who doesn't drive Miss Daisy
From the front page of the Bell website:
"Bell is offering a new product specifically designed for safe drivers. We will install a small unit into your vehicle that helps us to evaluate how safely you drive. You will receive feedback on your driving through your personalised online driver dashboard, which provides analysis on aspects of your driving that are safe, and areas where you can improve."
Admittedly, it's in grey - but it's right there on the home page. On other sites, Bell is described specifically as a "telematics car insurer".
(I think it stinks too, BTW.)
"Bell is offering a new product specifically designed for safe drivers. We will install a small unit into your vehicle that helps us to evaluate how safely you drive. You will receive feedback on your driving through your personalised online driver dashboard, which provides analysis on aspects of your driving that are safe, and areas where you can improve."
Admittedly, it's in grey - but it's right there on the home page. On other sites, Bell is described specifically as a "telematics car insurer".
(I think it stinks too, BTW.)
Going to play Devils Advocate slightly here.
I presume Bell offered you a price that was the lowest out of the quotes you'd received? Going out on a limb based on my experience of Admiral/Bell/Elephant (all the same group I think) that their premiums are invariably significantly lower than others.
You have the right to refuse to do business with them, pay more money and not have a box installed.
Furthermore Bell's home page says about them, and I quote, "offering a new product specifically designed for safe drivers. We will install a small unit into your vehicle that helps us to evaluate how safely you drive". Granted it's in small grey text, but it's there. They probably realise that it's not really a strong sales point to say "we're going to track what you do!" in big bold letters.
Expecting them to give you whatever they've quoted sans the black box seems like a strange request really, why would you assume they would be ok with this? Their quotes are underwritten on the basis of this black box being installed, it's not like they're going to say "ok sir, since you called us on it you can have the same price without the box, just please don't crash!".
edit: Beaten on the home page text.
I presume Bell offered you a price that was the lowest out of the quotes you'd received? Going out on a limb based on my experience of Admiral/Bell/Elephant (all the same group I think) that their premiums are invariably significantly lower than others.
You have the right to refuse to do business with them, pay more money and not have a box installed.
Furthermore Bell's home page says about them, and I quote, "offering a new product specifically designed for safe drivers. We will install a small unit into your vehicle that helps us to evaluate how safely you drive". Granted it's in small grey text, but it's there. They probably realise that it's not really a strong sales point to say "we're going to track what you do!" in big bold letters.
Expecting them to give you whatever they've quoted sans the black box seems like a strange request really, why would you assume they would be ok with this? Their quotes are underwritten on the basis of this black box being installed, it's not like they're going to say "ok sir, since you called us on it you can have the same price without the box, just please don't crash!".
edit: Beaten on the home page text.
Dr Mike Oxgreen said:
From the Collins Dictionary "Offer - present for acceptance or refusal" It seems you can't refuse it if you want their policy, so that is a misleading statement in my opinion.Durzel said:
I presume Bell offered you a price that was the lowest out of the quotes you'd received?
Nope. Admiral were cheaper again by quite a bit.Just think its really sneaky making it out to be of some benefit to you when infact its spying on you so they can rake in yet more cash or worm their way out of claims because you parked it slighlty further away than your home one day or whatever.
That miniscule very light grey text is worse than Ryanair's advertising. No where does it say 'you have to have it' - as stated above it says 'we offer', which means you can take it or leave it.
It stinks; plain and simple.
Edited by Anubis on Tuesday 16th October 10:12
Dr Mike Oxgreen said:
That to me suggests it's optional, which quite clearly after wasting your time going through the website & then a 10 minute phonecall to doublecheck, it most definately isn't. I wouldn't have been impressed either.As mentioned though, the line "Bell demands you install one of these big brother boxes in your car before we'll insure you" doesn't have quite the same ring to it does it?
Centurion07 said:
Dr Mike Oxgreen said:
That to me suggests it's optional, which quite clearly after wasting your time going through the website & then a 10 minute phonecall to doublecheck, it most definately isn't. I wouldn't have been impressed either.As mentioned though, the line "Bell demands you install one of these big brother boxes in your car before we'll insure you" doesn't have quite the same ring to it does it?
If it was optional, it would read, "Bell is offering a product that has certain optional features..."
Time for a rant...
I have to say I'm broadly in favour of these black boxes. For starters you can choose not to have them, you can insure your car for more money with someone else.
Secondly I would make the argument that the idea that everyone's risk is the same for every car is not granular enough in this day and age. Someone commuting into the centre of London is treated the same as someone who drives the same number of miles per year along quiet country roads. Driving in rush hour is treated the same as driving when most people are already in work. These black box insurance policies aren't for everyone, and have never been billed as such, but for Doris just popping out to bingo once a week or a student who would otherwise have to pay a massive premium because the system isn't granular enough to measure their risk properly - it's great.
People talk about these black boxes as if they are some massive invasion of privacy, when they choose to have them installed in the first place. It's not like they are installed surreptitiously. Furthermore people talk about their privacy like it's sacrosanct and are often blissfully unaware of what information numerous companies get every time you use your credit and debit cards.
Why do you think banks and supermarkets have been stepping on eachothers toes to get into their respective markets? It's so they can track money all the way from start to finish. And because it's not as explicit as a black box in your car people assume this stuff doesn't go on.
I have to say I'm broadly in favour of these black boxes. For starters you can choose not to have them, you can insure your car for more money with someone else.
Secondly I would make the argument that the idea that everyone's risk is the same for every car is not granular enough in this day and age. Someone commuting into the centre of London is treated the same as someone who drives the same number of miles per year along quiet country roads. Driving in rush hour is treated the same as driving when most people are already in work. These black box insurance policies aren't for everyone, and have never been billed as such, but for Doris just popping out to bingo once a week or a student who would otherwise have to pay a massive premium because the system isn't granular enough to measure their risk properly - it's great.
People talk about these black boxes as if they are some massive invasion of privacy, when they choose to have them installed in the first place. It's not like they are installed surreptitiously. Furthermore people talk about their privacy like it's sacrosanct and are often blissfully unaware of what information numerous companies get every time you use your credit and debit cards.
Why do you think banks and supermarkets have been stepping on eachothers toes to get into their respective markets? It's so they can track money all the way from start to finish. And because it's not as explicit as a black box in your car people assume this stuff doesn't go on.
f
k that, just think of all the bhp you'll be sapping by running extra electics in your car!
On a more serious note, my old S-Type Jag was VERY sensitive to electics. Even a slightly low output on the battery would shut the car down. I wonder what the process would be if you subsequently had problems with your car following the 'trained monked' butchering the electrics.
k that, just think of all the bhp you'll be sapping by running extra electics in your car!On a more serious note, my old S-Type Jag was VERY sensitive to electics. Even a slightly low output on the battery would shut the car down. I wonder what the process would be if you subsequently had problems with your car following the 'trained monked' butchering the electrics.
"It does not record any personal data ..."
This would appear to be a misleading statement. The data it collects must be linked to the insured, so is, by the definition in the DPA 1998, Personal Data.
Making such a statement would appear to be contrary to s70(2) DPA.
A report to the ICO might be sensible.
Streaky
This would appear to be a misleading statement. The data it collects must be linked to the insured, so is, by the definition in the DPA 1998, Personal Data.
Making such a statement would appear to be contrary to s70(2) DPA.
A report to the ICO might be sensible.
Streaky
Edited by streaky on Tuesday 16th October 20:42
Durzel said:
I presume Bell offered you a price that was the lowest out of the quotes you'd received? Going out on a limb based on my experience of Admiral/Bell/Elephant (all the same group I think) that their premiums are invariably significantly lower than others.
Especially if you use "confused.com". Because guess who owns "confused.com" the "independent" on line price comparison web site?Go on, have a guess!
OK to save time, the domain is registered at the same address as the Admiral Insurance Group.
Last year Admiral attempted the same trick when insuring my daughter's car - you go all the way through confused.com and then their own web site and phone call, then right at the end they said they were fitting a box. At that time there was absolutely no mention in the price quote, up until you got your credit car out, of such a condition. The price without the box was £300 more than the quote.
At this point I left it to my son, who knows his way around the FSA, insurance regulations, and call centre rules better than I do. Although they tried to obfuscate and argued that she had "ticked a box" specifying that option in asking for the quote, but he had replicated the quote and had saved screenshots of the whole online process, as a record, and they eventually gave up and refunded the extra (plus a wee bit more IIRC) and so insured the car at the quoted price.
They have since changed their corporate websites to what they are now, and it would seem that Bell are making it clear on page 1 that the box is a condition.
You would think the process was designed to be confusing (.com) - it certainly seems to be, to their call centre staff.
streaky said:
"It does not record any personal data ..."
This would appear to be a misleading statement. The data it collects must be linked to the insured, so is, by the definition, in the DPA 1998, Personal Data.
Making such a statement would appear to be contrary to s70(2) DPA.
A report to the ICO might be sensible.
Streaky
Even better, they say themselves (my bold):This would appear to be a misleading statement. The data it collects must be linked to the insured, so is, by the definition, in the DPA 1998, Personal Data.
Making such a statement would appear to be contrary to s70(2) DPA.
A report to the ICO might be sensible.
Streaky
Bell has created a new insurance product specifically designed for safe drivers. When you take out a policy, we will fit a small unit to your vehicle that will collect information as you drive. Each policy holder has access to their own personalised online driver dashboard that will give you detailed analysis on aspects that are safe and the areas where you can improve.
Buggr. I'm with Bell, although Admiral are always cheaper each year at renewal - Bell just price match which is the only reason I've stayed with them.
There's no way I'm letting some half trained monkey (oops, sorry - 'Fully Trained Technician') mess about with the electrics on my vehicle. They're problematic enough even for people that fully understand the car.
I wonder how long before Admiral start insisting on this too.
There's no way I'm letting some half trained monkey (oops, sorry - 'Fully Trained Technician') mess about with the electrics on my vehicle. They're problematic enough even for people that fully understand the car.
I wonder how long before Admiral start insisting on this too.
Durzel, I respect your comments but have to disagree. Where do we draw the line?
I accept you don't have to buy the policy but it was false advertising (other than that incredibly small grey font at the bottom). It misleads people and most (including Doris) will just say 'Yes' to everything to the phone monkey since they lure you in, talk very fast running through a million things at once and before you know it you have this thing in your car keeping an eye on you.
In a perfect world yes everything is fair and true and by having a box installed means you should be treated as an individual thus cheaper insurance. However, the real world isn't driven by 'doing what is right' - it boils down to cash and insurance companies will just use it as an excuse to raise prices.
I can see it right now; "ah, your stats show you drive on motorways Monday to Friday when it is busy, which means you're more likely to have a crash". That's not personal - that's just using stats to group you into those who drive on motorways frequently, therefor crashes on motorways cost more which means you end up paying more. You could be a perfectly safe driver yet you'll end up paying more due to being spied on.
You honestly think this little box is to benefit the masses by lowering insurance premiums? You'd be out of business pretty quick. It's to gather data and up rates based on your previous driving habits.
What happens if you change jobs or move house? Your "accident prone" route your paying for last year has changed completely yet you're paying for it.
It's a horrid, under hand messy way of doing something that doesn't need to be - just pay if I have an incident. That's the agreement and risk - plain and simple.
I accept you don't have to buy the policy but it was false advertising (other than that incredibly small grey font at the bottom). It misleads people and most (including Doris) will just say 'Yes' to everything to the phone monkey since they lure you in, talk very fast running through a million things at once and before you know it you have this thing in your car keeping an eye on you.
In a perfect world yes everything is fair and true and by having a box installed means you should be treated as an individual thus cheaper insurance. However, the real world isn't driven by 'doing what is right' - it boils down to cash and insurance companies will just use it as an excuse to raise prices.
I can see it right now; "ah, your stats show you drive on motorways Monday to Friday when it is busy, which means you're more likely to have a crash". That's not personal - that's just using stats to group you into those who drive on motorways frequently, therefor crashes on motorways cost more which means you end up paying more. You could be a perfectly safe driver yet you'll end up paying more due to being spied on.
You honestly think this little box is to benefit the masses by lowering insurance premiums? You'd be out of business pretty quick. It's to gather data and up rates based on your previous driving habits.
What happens if you change jobs or move house? Your "accident prone" route your paying for last year has changed completely yet you're paying for it.
It's a horrid, under hand messy way of doing something that doesn't need to be - just pay if I have an incident. That's the agreement and risk - plain and simple.
The entire concept just seems extremely messy to me.
What if I want one of these fitted to a brand new car, does it invalidate my warranty? Should it be fitted by the dealer?
What happens when I sell the car, is it my responsibilty to inform the new order theres a data logger installed?
What if after 12 months you don't want to renew your insurance? Do they charge you for the box, or does some half price auto electrician come and rip it out?
How do you know they've turned the box off and are not collecting marketing data for the life of the car.
what happens on trackdays? Does it pick up the fact you may have purchased 3rd party coverage?
As with many things financial services think up, its a good idea in theory, but doesn't work in the real world. At this point the savings son't seem to justify the hassle.
Am I right in saying that if this detects you speeding (which is why people wont fit one) the data cannot be used for prosecution?
What if I want one of these fitted to a brand new car, does it invalidate my warranty? Should it be fitted by the dealer?
What happens when I sell the car, is it my responsibilty to inform the new order theres a data logger installed?
What if after 12 months you don't want to renew your insurance? Do they charge you for the box, or does some half price auto electrician come and rip it out?
How do you know they've turned the box off and are not collecting marketing data for the life of the car.
what happens on trackdays? Does it pick up the fact you may have purchased 3rd party coverage?
As with many things financial services think up, its a good idea in theory, but doesn't work in the real world. At this point the savings son't seem to justify the hassle.
Am I right in saying that if this detects you speeding (which is why people wont fit one) the data cannot be used for prosecution?
I can't see them ever being popular with bikers. Obviously just sayin' like...
On another note, so what happens if they see you're a regular "offender" ? Will they boost your premium for the year you're insured or just whack it up if you try to renew? Will that data be allowed to be passed on (i would certainly presume not)... however, they could then deny you insurance on the basis of your driving - one of the questions you are asked by ALL insurers if i'm correct?
Loon, you about to clarify a few things?
Cheers
On another note, so what happens if they see you're a regular "offender" ? Will they boost your premium for the year you're insured or just whack it up if you try to renew? Will that data be allowed to be passed on (i would certainly presume not)... however, they could then deny you insurance on the basis of your driving - one of the questions you are asked by ALL insurers if i'm correct?
Loon, you about to clarify a few things?
Cheers
Anubis said:
Durzel, I respect your comments but have to disagree. Where do we draw the line?
I accept you don't have to buy the policy but it was false advertising (other than that incredibly small grey font at the bottom). It misleads people and most (including Doris) will just say 'Yes' to everything to the phone monkey since they lure you in, talk very fast running through a million things at once and before you know it you have this thing in your car keeping an eye on you.
False advertising apart from the fact it's on the front page in writing on the very first paragraph I accept you don't have to buy the policy but it was false advertising (other than that incredibly small grey font at the bottom). It misleads people and most (including Doris) will just say 'Yes' to everything to the phone monkey since they lure you in, talk very fast running through a million things at once and before you know it you have this thing in your car keeping an eye on you.
It's hardly the insurers fault if you're too lazyto read the very first page of their website.
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