DVLA incompetence
Discussion
streaky said:
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I would always send documents I needed returning by Special Delivery and keep photocopies/scans, but for the purposes of the Interpretation Act, a receipt showing DVLA's address should suffice.
Streaky
I agree with your post and I am glad that you made that caveat on the subject of being certain that documents have been posted, by using recorded delivery.I would always send documents I needed returning by Special Delivery and keep photocopies/scans, but for the purposes of the Interpretation Act, a receipt showing DVLA's address should suffice.
Streaky
Edited by streaky on Saturday 3rd November 11:00
I have suggested to clients for years that all important documents are sent by recorded delivery. Particularly to any and every government agency. The fact is that all these, including the Inland Revenue regularly lose documents.
I have always found that quoiting the recorded reference causes all further complaint to cease. There have been a number of occasions where the IR in particular, who are nothing if not honest, subsequently admit to receipt and admit to losing the correspondence and politely request a copy.
Whilst there is no legal obligation to record the delivery it is £1 well spent IMHO.
I did have one case where Companies House initially denied receipt but then, on getting the recorded reference suggested there was nothing within. It went very quiet when I pointed out that there were three letters within the envelope and that they had acknowledged the other two letters. Recorded is better IMO.
highflyer said:
Dear sir/madam
our records show you are the registered keeper of the above vehicle. This vehicle did not have a valid tax disc or Statutory Off Road Notice (SORN) in force from 01/09/2012 this is an offence.
Dear DVLAour records show you are the registered keeper of the above vehicle. This vehicle did not have a valid tax disc or Statutory Off Road Notice (SORN) in force from 01/09/2012 this is an offence.
I am fully aware that is an offence but, as I have already sent you the required notification, it is neither my fault nor my problem that your records are incorrect.
This is my draft letter just wondering if you guys think it will cover it, I have incorporated what has been said and I thank you, as I tend to be a bit more to the point and not very subtle
ref no *********
Please ignore previous letter dated 2/11/2012 this was written in haste due to the nature of your letter headed Failure To Licence
Section 7 interpretations act 1978 (IA78)
There in no reference to proof required of posting by recorded delivery or that it it has to be signed for, anywhere on the V5C form
My obligations to the DVLA were fulfilled by posting the log book 18 months ago. I consider it your responsibility to contact the new owner with reference to Tax or SORN of this vehicle. I am fully aware that it is an offence, but as I have already sent you the required notification, it is neither my fault nor my problem that your records are incorrect. I now consider this matter closed, as it has been over 18 months
regards
this is a draft but if there is anything you think I should add please let me know
like I said im not very subtle and would like to add 'now fck off' but I don't think that would help
ref no *********
Please ignore previous letter dated 2/11/2012 this was written in haste due to the nature of your letter headed Failure To Licence
- ***** was on sorn when I bought it, because it was a box of bits. I had it rebuilt and then sold it while it was still on SORN.
Section 7 interpretations act 1978 (IA78)
There in no reference to proof required of posting by recorded delivery or that it it has to be signed for, anywhere on the V5C form
My obligations to the DVLA were fulfilled by posting the log book 18 months ago. I consider it your responsibility to contact the new owner with reference to Tax or SORN of this vehicle. I am fully aware that it is an offence, but as I have already sent you the required notification, it is neither my fault nor my problem that your records are incorrect. I now consider this matter closed, as it has been over 18 months
regards
this is a draft but if there is anything you think I should add please let me know
like I said im not very subtle and would like to add 'now fck off' but I don't think that would help
It is you who seeks to rely on Section 7 of the IA to show that the V5C was delivered to DVLA.
Contrary to the impression given by some posts the onus is on you to prove to the Court that you sent the V5C correctly. The Court must be convinced, on balance that you did so.
If the Court accepts your evidence the onus is then on the DVLA to prove that the V5C was not actually delivered. (Note they do no need to prove you did not send it).
The difficulty for the DVLA is proving to the Court that the V5C was lost in the post and not mislaid by them after it was delivered. Although it is very difficult it is not impossible.
All you can do is argue that you sent it and hope that eventually the DVLA will give up. Don't be surprised if they do not do so simply because you claim you have sent the V5C to them.
Contrary to the impression given by some posts the onus is on you to prove to the Court that you sent the V5C correctly. The Court must be convinced, on balance that you did so.
If the Court accepts your evidence the onus is then on the DVLA to prove that the V5C was not actually delivered. (Note they do no need to prove you did not send it).
The difficulty for the DVLA is proving to the Court that the V5C was lost in the post and not mislaid by them after it was delivered. Although it is very difficult it is not impossible.
All you can do is argue that you sent it and hope that eventually the DVLA will give up. Don't be surprised if they do not do so simply because you claim you have sent the V5C to them.
On the point of sending documents recorded or registered post, read and weep:
I was trying to get a £1,000 tax rebate from IR and it was taking ages. They asked for my wage slips as they said my employer was ignoring them....sent them recorded. They sent them back a week later and a little acknowledgement slip, too.
And so I thought the cheque was on its way.
2 months go, nothing. I write and ask what's up now.
'You did not send the wage slips we asked for'
So I sent their acknowledgement letter, reminding them they had sent them back to me so stop the Monty Python stuff.
It got better...
'Sir, we did indeed receive your documents but what we meant was they were not seen by the correct office and therefore not received by us'
I was trying to get a £1,000 tax rebate from IR and it was taking ages. They asked for my wage slips as they said my employer was ignoring them....sent them recorded. They sent them back a week later and a little acknowledgement slip, too.
And so I thought the cheque was on its way.
2 months go, nothing. I write and ask what's up now.
'You did not send the wage slips we asked for'
So I sent their acknowledgement letter, reminding them they had sent them back to me so stop the Monty Python stuff.
It got better...
'Sir, we did indeed receive your documents but what we meant was they were not seen by the correct office and therefore not received by us'
jondude said:
On the point of sending documents recorded or registered post, read and weep:
I was trying to get a £1,000 tax rebate from IR and it was taking ages. They asked for my wage slips as they said my employer was ignoring them....sent them recorded. They sent them back a week later and a little acknowledgement slip, too.
And so I thought the cheque was on its way.
2 months go, nothing. I write and ask what's up now.
'You did not send the wage slips we asked for'
So I sent their acknowledgement letter, reminding them they had sent them back to me so stop the Monty Python stuff.
It got better...
'Sir, we did indeed receive your documents but what we meant was they were not seen by the correct office and therefore not received by us'
I'm assuming they got a 'your incompetence is not my problem' reply? I was trying to get a £1,000 tax rebate from IR and it was taking ages. They asked for my wage slips as they said my employer was ignoring them....sent them recorded. They sent them back a week later and a little acknowledgement slip, too.
And so I thought the cheque was on its way.
2 months go, nothing. I write and ask what's up now.
'You did not send the wage slips we asked for'
So I sent their acknowledgement letter, reminding them they had sent them back to me so stop the Monty Python stuff.
It got better...
'Sir, we did indeed receive your documents but what we meant was they were not seen by the correct office and therefore not received by us'
I once scrapped a car on the 31st (tax due next day). Took 14 months of letters and demands for fines before dvla accepted I was legally sound.
Thought it ridiculous as the scrapper was a government place not an independent.
Ps on the other hand when one of my car nos. was cloned and spotted bilking, speeding etc. they accepted it wasn't myself within 1 month
Thought it ridiculous as the scrapper was a government place not an independent.
Ps on the other hand when one of my car nos. was cloned and spotted bilking, speeding etc. they accepted it wasn't myself within 1 month
bertieg said:
if you read all my posts, you would see that is not what i did. i had my day in court to fight it, because i knew i was right. unfortunately, they clearly saw a young, inexperienced person and thought they'd punish me, regardless of what i and anyone else may believe right
No. THat is not how magistrates think - they're not 'out to get you'. They would have done what they believed was right and in compliance with the law, and in this case almost certainly what they were advised by the Clerk - who may well in this case have made a mistake. Did you have representation? If so, they served you badly, as BV said earlier. WHen was this? Are you in time for an appeal? The law as stated would seem to be on your side.
Just a rolling reminder regarding recorded and special delivery.
Recorded delivery is, in my experience, a waste of a pound. All that happens is that the letter goes in the normal post, is just as easily lost, and the only difference is that in theory should be handled differently at the other end by the delivery bod getting a Proof of Delivery signature.
In practice, on the ground, for documents that you wish to be sure and confident of the delivery, especially when dealing with an organisation of known incompetence and/or intransigence, yes DVLA and HMRC I am looking directly at you, then Special Delivery is the only way forward, as it is tracked from your hand all the way to the final destination. This should be followed by very careful retention of document copies, the Post Office receipt, and the PoD from the RM website.
I know it is expensive, pedantic and extremely anal to do this, but one can punt these stupid situations into touch very rapidly when they occur. It is basically, beating the bureaucrats at their own game, and as Corporal Jones frequently said, "They don't like it up 'em!"
Nevertheless "sticking it up 'em" can be rather satisfying.
Recorded delivery is, in my experience, a waste of a pound. All that happens is that the letter goes in the normal post, is just as easily lost, and the only difference is that in theory should be handled differently at the other end by the delivery bod getting a Proof of Delivery signature.
In practice, on the ground, for documents that you wish to be sure and confident of the delivery, especially when dealing with an organisation of known incompetence and/or intransigence, yes DVLA and HMRC I am looking directly at you, then Special Delivery is the only way forward, as it is tracked from your hand all the way to the final destination. This should be followed by very careful retention of document copies, the Post Office receipt, and the PoD from the RM website.
I know it is expensive, pedantic and extremely anal to do this, but one can punt these stupid situations into touch very rapidly when they occur. It is basically, beating the bureaucrats at their own game, and as Corporal Jones frequently said, "They don't like it up 'em!"
Nevertheless "sticking it up 'em" can be rather satisfying.
bertieg said:
did you ever receive a notification that the registered keeper had changed? if not, expect a fine turning up on your doorstep soon
speaking from experience, expect a long, tedious argument which will undoubtedly end up in their favour. if they offer a fine, begrudgingly pay it and move on, disputing it wont get you anywhere
You dont get any paperwork back from the dvla when you sell a car.speaking from experience, expect a long, tedious argument which will undoubtedly end up in their favour. if they offer a fine, begrudgingly pay it and move on, disputing it wont get you anywhere
Once you send off the V5 thats normally the last you hear of it...
static2010 said:
You dont get any paperwork back from the dvla when you sell a car.
Once you send off the V5 thats normally the last you hear of it...
thats not correct. if the DVLA have received your change of ownership request and processed it correctly, they should sent a notification to say so. legally, they do not have to, but they state that they will send it, and if you dont receive it you must chase it upOnce you send off the V5 thats normally the last you hear of it...
bertieg said:
static2010 said:
You dont get any paperwork back from the dvla when you sell a car.
Once you send off the V5 thats normally the last you hear of it...
thats not correct. if the DVLA have received your change of ownership request and processed it correctly, they should sent a notification to say so. legally, they do not have to, but they state that they will send it, and if you dont receive it you must chase it upOnce you send off the V5 thats normally the last you hear of it...
Streaky
streaky said:
Just to emphasise, as your last statement is open to interpretation [no pun intended], you are not required to "chase up" DVLA in the event you do not receive their notification of receipt. No matter their protest, there is no obligation in law that they can point to.
Streaky
Always take a photocopy of what you send to them as well. Streaky
We had much fun when they were threatening me with all sorts as I had "lied" etc... Funnily enough when I asked for an affidavit from the person stating that I had lied and a attached a copy of the document showing that we had put the correct information and one of their muppets had failed to read it properly, I didn't hear from them again.......
streaky said:
Just to emphasise, as your last statement is open to interpretation [no pun intended], you are not required to "chase up" DVLA in the event you do not receive their notification of receipt. No matter their protest, there is no obligation in law that they can point to.
Streaky
thats absolutely true, but from now on i shall most certainly pester the hell out of the DVLA daily, after every vehicle i sell, to be sure they have received my notificationStreaky
petty? me? never!
Section 9 on the back of the V5C on the right paragraph
We will send you an acknowledgement letter confirming you are no longer the registered keeper. We will do this within 4 weeks, if you do not recieve this letter, phone DVLA Customer Enquiries on ******** as you could still be liable for the vehicle and you may get a penalty and/or proscuted.
got to say I have never read this until now, I have always just filled in the V5 torn out the green bit handed it to the new keeper and posted the rest off, and I don't ever remember recieving an acknowledgement letter for any vehicles that I have sold previously.
my present car that I bought just over a year ago they sent the log book then about 6 months ago I got a new style logbook through and told this was to replace the old one and destroy the old one, which I have actually kept.
So unfortunatly it is in black and white but as its over 18 months ago I am not giving in to these incompetent aholes and shall await there reply.
We will send you an acknowledgement letter confirming you are no longer the registered keeper. We will do this within 4 weeks, if you do not recieve this letter, phone DVLA Customer Enquiries on ******** as you could still be liable for the vehicle and you may get a penalty and/or proscuted.
got to say I have never read this until now, I have always just filled in the V5 torn out the green bit handed it to the new keeper and posted the rest off, and I don't ever remember recieving an acknowledgement letter for any vehicles that I have sold previously.
my present car that I bought just over a year ago they sent the log book then about 6 months ago I got a new style logbook through and told this was to replace the old one and destroy the old one, which I have actually kept.
So unfortunatly it is in black and white but as its over 18 months ago I am not giving in to these incompetent aholes and shall await there reply.
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