Plebgate - An interesting new twist
Discussion
DP1 said:
Derek Smith said:
In my force they privatised the ID unit.
Derek Smith said:
Foreign forces come to this country, or rather came, to see the innovations that we have instigated. The Germans came to this country to see ID procedures
So how does this make privatisation a bad thing of some areas. 
DP1 said:
But surely the procedure is a reflection of the organisation. The implication from Derek is that privatisation = bad.
I suspect very much that it was the technology, ie the software, that was developed in the UK, that they were interested in. I doubt that they really took much notice of what colour shirt the staff were wearing or who paid their wages.Still failing to see why Derek mentioned it as though it was bad thing though. Surely this service, operated by the private sector must ultimately come in cheaper than if it is operated by police officers who will in the end cost more due to pension commitments, more favourable sick terms etc.
I would think that your private sector chap pick up nowhere near what a PC does.
I would think that your private sector chap pick up nowhere near what a PC does.
omegac said:
You have to remember the Police have numpty senior officers negotiating with shrewd business people. When the Met did their C3i project every major supplier advised against it, the Met went ahead and guess what...it's a white elephant.
They are police people, not business people.
This is something that I've noticed at work, the service is being run like a business when in reality it isn't. It's not doing any good at all.They are police people, not business people.
I have no issue with outsourcing certain things. The problem is it'll be the cheapest bidder who won't deliver and it'll cost more in the long run to sort out.
Like our body armour that got changed, the company made them incorrectly which meant they got sent back and that put them out of business...brilliant.
Like our body armour that got changed, the company made them incorrectly which meant they got sent back and that put them out of business...brilliant.
DP1 said:
Still failing to see why Derek mentioned it as though it was bad thing though. Surely this service, operated by the private sector must ultimately come in cheaper than if it is operated by police officers who will in the end cost more due to pension commitments, more favourable sick terms etc.
I would think that your private sector chap pick up nowhere near what a PC does.
Privatisation takes control of the support away from the police. So the police would have to change their systems to suite the provider. This has been shown by the demands made by the CPS (although that is a different argument in reality, although the extra cost after the police lost the power to prosecute is tremendous). In m time we had to provide all sorts of things 'in case'. So multiple photocopies were required for files that, if a person pleased at the first or an early opportunity were wasted.I would think that your private sector chap pick up nowhere near what a PC does.
Another example is prosecutions. With the massive reductions in funding, the police are putting in many fewer files but the police get no money back for the savings. It is PFI so the work isn't done but the force still has to pay.
ID parades: there again the police were forced to opt for PFI and before the unit was up and running, the CoPs were changed and the demand for parades dropped from the vast majority to hardly any, the balance being made up of video ID procedures (of which my force was a leader).
And there's more but I perhaps have made my point regarding money.
Another point is the lack of strategic reserve. With civilians taking over the role that could be operated by older police officers, when something like the riots happened, these could not be put out onto the street to cover the gaps, or rather release officers. No chance of filling the gaps.
The ones under the police initiatives were mainly cost savings. For instance, the contracted ex-officers took away mundane roles where a warrant card was not, normally, required. If the contracted chap needed an officer, then he called for one. But experience of the internal workings and functions of the police was an essential as was the knowledge of when to ask for help. You could get these on the 'cheap' so saving lots of money.
Control rooms used civilians in part, in my force 2/3rds. This left a strategic reserve.
Further, having such roles performed by police also allowed the force positions to place injured officers who otherwise would have been on sick leave. Many injuries would have been work related so the officers might well have been on full pay for some time.
I had one officer suspended after an accusation of assault. He was put on an internal role, releasing a police officer for outside duty.
So control of civilianisation by the specific force allows the forces control over their expenditure. With the swingeing cut to funding, forces could cut the civilian posts fairly promptly leaving police numbmers nearly intact.
So there is a massive difference between civilianisation and privatisation. The former has certain advantages. The latter is merely a way of selling stuff.
With, for instance, the privatisation of roads policing, you will get a group which can fine you without the protection that goes with police officers. Are you happy with private parking? Speed camera enforcement? And the other forms of enforcment.
Then we get patrolling controlled by G4S. Many on here suggest the police are rather thick. You wait until you get the basic wage type.
What the government will do is sell certain aspects of policing to the highest bidder, always assuming there is more than one. That worked well with railways. So the successful bidder will have to make certain economies to pay for the bid. If there is just the one 'favoured' bidder then they will have to pay the gift to the party coffers.
My force were whole-hearted supporters of privatisation. They have had to let go a number of such people so they lose that experience, their functions are taken over by officers who should be out patrolling, although of course they will be shown as patrolling on the strength, although not by my force which tried to be honest but then was criticised by HMIC for doing so.
You have control of policing at the moment. The forces can be bullied by a cabinet minister as demonstrated by May. When the company awarded the contract is funding the party in control then there might well be a reluctance to do the same.
Wasn't there a company providing private security to some big sporting event? Wasn't it criticised? Still, at least we can be sure it never got any more government contracts.
XCP said:
DP1 said:
Derek Smith said:
In my force they privatised the ID unit.
Derek Smith said:
Foreign forces come to this country, or rather came, to see the innovations that we have instigated. The Germans came to this country to see ID procedures
So how does this make privatisation a bad thing of some areas. omegac said:
You have to remember the Police have numpty senior officers negotiating with shrewd business people. When the Met did their C3i project every major supplier advised against it, the Met went ahead and guess what...it's a white elephant.
They are police people, not business people.
This is a common misconception in an out of the police. The naive public sector boss being bent over by the savvy profiteer. They are police people, not business people.
Tendering processes are done by civilians whose job (procurement) is it to just do that. It's not some superintendent who just gets allocated loads of money to figure it out as they go along. These people nearly always have private sector experience. They are responsible for translating the police's intentions into a specification that private companies bid for and have to show they're the most suitable to meet it and the contract.
Different thresholds exist. If the potential sum is large enough the the tender must be EU-wide.
That's not to say there aren't issues now and again, but then, you find any large private organisation that never has procurement issues.
La Liga said:
This is a common misconception in an out of the police. The naive public sector boss being bent over by the savvy profiteer.
I was at C3i Management Board meetings where a uniformed DAC had discussions about the integration of existing systems into C3i. This was with international communications companies, household names. There may have been a smattering of civilian staff there too, but the DAC was the one running the meeting and to all intents and purposes making the decisions.La Liga said:
That's not to say there aren't issues now and again, but then, you find any large private organisation that never has procurement issues.
You can say that again. 100GBP (pound sign won't work for some reason) callouts for someone to install a printer, external companies turning up to install a lightbulb who can only replace the one they've been called out to, not the one that has blown since the "job number" was issued.I guarantee, no private sector company owner is ever disappointed when they get a public sector contract.
DP1 said:
Still failing to see why Derek mentioned it as though it was bad thing though. Surely this service, operated by the private sector must ultimately come in cheaper than if it is operated by police officers who will in the end cost more due to pension commitments, more favourable sick terms etc.
I would think that your private sector chap pick up nowhere near what a PC does.
Ye, that favourable sickness scheme. The one that civilian staff are not allowed because their union would not allow it. And that lovely pension where, if you are injured on duty, you can lose your rights to it if the injury is one where you might recover at some unspecificed time in the future. I know one bloke who had less than 2 years to go in service but suffered an injury on duty. He was still in recovery, actually as bad as he ever was, when the job pulled support and he was looking at loss of pension rights running into 10sK, just what he needed to help his recovery. Despite being, in those days, forced to retire within a bit under four years and all doctors suggesting he would not be fit within that time, he was still not able to be retired on grounds of incapacity.I would think that your private sector chap pick up nowhere near what a PC does.
Threats of legal action, costs paid for by the federation, and support from the federation, taking the pressure off, helped the chap recover and get a full pension. He made a full recovery, although some time after he would have been forced to retire by the regulations.
That pension?
Also the pension that everyone goes on about, the one that cost over 12% of gross income in real terms, is dead, buried, destroyed, despite its benefits reducing the pay that police officers received, so in fact costing the individual much more than 12%, that one is no more.
Derek...Just to add, in case you're not aware, Chief Medical Officer advice is now just that, advice.
I know because my wife had been put on certain duties by the CMO after suffering a minor stroke in January, yesterday she was informed that her management (obviously all qualified doctors) have decided she is fit to go back to full duties.
I know because my wife had been put on certain duties by the CMO after suffering a minor stroke in January, yesterday she was informed that her management (obviously all qualified doctors) have decided she is fit to go back to full duties.
omegac said:
You can say that again. 100GBP (pound sign won't work for some reason) callouts for someone to install a printer, external companies turning up to install a lightbulb who can only replace the one they've been called out to, not the one that has blown since the "job number" was issued.
I guarantee, no private sector company owner is ever disappointed when they get a public sector contract.
These will be off-the-shelf servicing packages. The same as the private sector will have. I guarantee, no private sector company owner is ever disappointed when they get a public sector contract.
La Liga said:
omegac said:
You have to remember the Police have numpty senior officers negotiating with shrewd business people. When the Met did their C3i project every major supplier advised against it, the Met went ahead and guess what...it's a white elephant.
They are police people, not business people.
This is a common misconception in an out of the police. The naive public sector boss being bent over by the savvy profiteer. They are police people, not business people.
Tendering processes are done by civilians whose job (procurement) is it to just do that. It's not some superintendent who just gets allocated loads of money to figure it out as they go along. These people nearly always have private sector experience. They are responsible for translating the police's intentions into a specification that private companies bid for and have to show they're the most suitable to meet it and the contract.
Different thresholds exist. If the potential sum is large enough the the tender must be EU-wide.
That's not to say there aren't issues now and again, but then, you find any large private organisation that never has procurement issues.
Because electronic signs have never been specified, made or commissioned before. How many Chartered Engineers do the HA employ? I'm sure they always get top marks for diversity even if they think using an Engineering Drawing and a tape measure is a bit below them.
Edited by carinaman on Saturday 24th May 21:01
carinaman said:
I think the Highways Agency Matrix signs not being within the law and the regulations being rewritten once they'd been installed and commissioned being a case in point.
Because electronic signs have never been specified, made or commissioned before. How many Chartered Engineers do the HA employ? I'm sure they always get top marks for diversity even if they think using an Engineering Drawing and a tape measure is a bit below them.
I think Porsche GT3s setting on fire being a case in point. How many engineers do they employ etc? Because electronic signs have never been specified, made or commissioned before. How many Chartered Engineers do the HA employ? I'm sure they always get top marks for diversity even if they think using an Engineering Drawing and a tape measure is a bit below them.
Easy to find examples of things not going as they should in the public and private sector.
Large organisations have wastage and inefficiencies. The common demonstrator is that people create wastage and inefficiencies.
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