Plebgate - An interesting new twist
Discussion
[quote=ClaphamGT3
As I, and others, have said repeatedly in this thread (and you have, again, failed to grasp) this isn't about the fact that an ill-mannered politician spoke ungraciously to a policeman; the lasting legacy of this sorry saga is likely to be the public perception of the unprofessional and, in some cases, dishonest behaviour of the police
[/quote]
Plus Police playing political games and politicians lying. An unedifying playground squabble has escalated into into all the involved partied looking dodgy, stupid and vain. And we still don't know who, if anyone, was truthful. As if it matters now, a pox on them all.
As I, and others, have said repeatedly in this thread (and you have, again, failed to grasp) this isn't about the fact that an ill-mannered politician spoke ungraciously to a policeman; the lasting legacy of this sorry saga is likely to be the public perception of the unprofessional and, in some cases, dishonest behaviour of the police
[/quote]
Plus Police playing political games and politicians lying. An unedifying playground squabble has escalated into into all the involved partied looking dodgy, stupid and vain. And we still don't know who, if anyone, was truthful. As if it matters now, a pox on them all.
ClaphamGT3 said:
the lasting legacy of this sorry saga is likely to be the public perception of the unprofessional and, in some cases, dishonest behaviour of the police
I don't like doing EFAs, so will point out here that what you think of as the public are in fact your fellow police-haters.All the general public will remember about the Plebgate affair is that Mitchell lost an extremely expensive court case because he lied.
singlecoil said:
ClaphamGT3 said:
the lasting legacy of this sorry saga is likely to be the public perception of the unprofessional and, in some cases, dishonest behaviour of the police
I don't like doing EFAs, so will point out here that what you think of as the public are in fact your fellow police-haters.All the general public will remember about the Plebgate affair is that Mitchell lost an extremely expensive court case because he lied.
I suspect that most of the public have already forgotten that a reasonably wealthy guy got dinged a fair bit because he was ill-judged enough to think that NI would roll over and settle out of court
Red 4 said:
Garvin said:
I think it's safe to say that nobody in this sorry tale was telling 'the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth'.
Including PC Rowland ? (the officer paid £80,000 for defamation). Edited by Red 4 on Tuesday 11th August 18:45
Anyway, I take it from your reference to Rowland alone that you, too, consider that all others involved in this 'merry jape' have not been completely truthful, including the three Fed Reps.
So that whole let's get Mitchell at his constituency office and then brief against him to the organised waiting media throng was a cynical stunt arranged by police 'lovers' was it?
The police didn't risk assess the likelihood of hard data disproving what they then said to the media?
Plod hoisted by their own petard by playing politics with a politician.
Perhaps if they'd stuck to police work rather than making mountains out of molehills and making themselves look like amatuers?
That the officers involved chose to play with the police brand rather than their own personal reputations is their fault, nobody elses.
The police didn't risk assess the likelihood of hard data disproving what they then said to the media?
Plod hoisted by their own petard by playing politics with a politician.
Perhaps if they'd stuck to police work rather than making mountains out of molehills and making themselves look like amatuers?
That the officers involved chose to play with the police brand rather than their own personal reputations is their fault, nobody elses.
singlecoil said:
All the general public will remember about the Plebgate affair is that Mitchell lost an extremely expensive court case because he lied.
I am not trying to take sides in this debate, but one would think that, in addition to remembering that Andrew Mitchell MP lost an expensive and perhaps ill-judged defamation suit, the general public will also have recollections of:The Guardian said:
A Scotland Yard diplomatic protection officer has been jailed after he admitted lying about witnessing the Plebgate row that caused the resignation of a cabinet minister.
Constable Keith Wallis was sentenced to 12 months in prison when he appeared at the Old Bailey in central London on Thursday.
Constable Keith Wallis was sentenced to 12 months in prison when he appeared at the Old Bailey in central London on Thursday.
The Sun said:
A police officer who leaked information on the Plebgate scandal to The Sun has been sacked, the Metropolitan Police Service has confirmed.
PC James Glanville gave the newspaper a photograph of an email sent from a fellow officer to his superiors about the affair.
PC James Glanville gave the newspaper a photograph of an email sent from a fellow officer to his superiors about the affair.
The Telegraph said:
A police constable has been sacked over leaks to the press linked to the Plebgate row, Scotland Yard confirmed.
Gillian Weatherley was found to have breached standards of professional behaviour in relation to honesty and integrity; orders and instructions; confidentiality; discreditable conduct and challenging and reporting improper conduct in a three-day misconduct hearing
Gillian Weatherley was found to have breached standards of professional behaviour in relation to honesty and integrity; orders and instructions; confidentiality; discreditable conduct and challenging and reporting improper conduct in a three-day misconduct hearing
BBC said:
A policewoman (PC Susan Johnson) has become the fourth officer to be sacked over press leaks related to the "plebgate" affair.
A Metropolitan Police panel found PC Susan Johnson had breached standards of professional behaviour in relation to honesty and integrity.
I would submit that, rather than first recalling the defamation suit, people are more likely to recall that several police officers were sacked for misconduct and one was sent to prison. A Metropolitan Police panel found PC Susan Johnson had breached standards of professional behaviour in relation to honesty and integrity.
flemke said:
I would submit that, rather than first recalling the defamation suit, people are more likely to recall that several police officers were sacked for misconduct and one was sent to prison.
This. And before people start throwing accusations of 'police-hater', I'm no such thing. I just happen to think that of the numerous people who behaved badly in relation the the Plebgate affair, Andrew Mitchell perhaps behaved less badly than some others. My abiding memory of this whole nonsnse is this:
Long after one side had publicly appologised and suggested to move on, the other side decided to politicise the issue for their own supposed bebefit. At the time it felt wrong and unnecessary. Not the sort of thing the police should be doing
Long after one side had publicly appologised and suggested to move on, the other side decided to politicise the issue for their own supposed bebefit. At the time it felt wrong and unnecessary. Not the sort of thing the police should be doing
singlecoil said:
I don't like doing EFAs, so will point out here that what you think of as the public are in fact your fellow police-haters.
All the general public will remember about the Plebgate affair is that Mitchell lost an extremely expensive court case because he lied.
I don think that's at all true. Everyone and everyone I've spoken to about this, whilst having nothing good to say about Mitchell, has also been pretty disgusted by the behaviour of the police officers involved. All the general public will remember about the Plebgate affair is that Mitchell lost an extremely expensive court case because he lied.
Deny it all you like but it's been another damaging event for the police service.
lauda said:
This. And before people start throwing accusations of 'police-hater', I'm no such thing. I just happen to think that of the numerous people who behaved badly in relation the the Plebgate affair, Andrew Mitchell perhaps behaved less badly than some others.
Generally one is not chosen to be Chief Whip because one is a warm and fuzzy kind-of-guy. For all we know, Mitchell might be a complete ass.It is the norm for people to "remember" a version of events that is favourable to themselves. How many of us could quote verbatim what we had said in a moment of exasperation and fury? Nonetheless, most of us will be convinced that what we would like to have said was indeed what we said.
It seems unlikely that Mitchell would have pressed his defamation suit if he really believed that he had used the word "pleb". He might have done, but on the balance of probabilities it seems unlikely.
"Lying" refers to a conscious, purposeful intent to deceive. Being absolutely convinced that one had not said "Red", before audio records later showed that one actually had said "Red", would not be lying. It would, however, have been incorrect. If Mitchell sued on the basis that he had not said "Red", he would have been mistaken, and he would have lost his case, but he would not necessarily have lied. On the balance of probabilities, I suspect that Mitchell did not lie, notwithstanding that a judge ruled that he was mistaken and therefore the Respondent was not guilty of defamation, costs ordered.
The behaviour in this matter of certain members of the Police (at least the 4 already sacked and/or jailed) was of an entirely different character. Those Police officers took premeditated, calculated steps to lie and/or to breach their Code of Conduct.
This was not a case of bad-but-really-good cops cutting corners or bending some fussy ECHR rules in order to foil a terror plot or to trap a paedophile.
To the contrary, the actions that those few Police officers took had nothing whatsoever to do with the greater good. Those officers had certain private political beliefs that were, perhaps not coincidentally, consistent with their personal employment and financial interests, and it was in pursuit of their private political beliefs and self-interest that they made the conscious choice to breach their Code of Conduct and in at least one case to contrive outright lies.
It is quite possible that Andrew Mitchell MP is a prick whilst the guilty Police officers are fundamentally decent but misguided folk. In terms of the actions themselves, however, it would appear that the behaviour of those few Police officers was far worse than his.
Edited by flemke on Wednesday 12th August 09:40
I remember three things about this case:
1. Mitchell was a dick.
2. One of the police, Rowland, appeared to be pretty awesome by not really giving a toss about the rude git. And furthermore giving so little of a toss that he didn't need to lie vindictively about the self-described "non event".
3. Other coppers lied.
Of course this reaffirms my previous bias:
- MPs are generally self-important douches.
- Some of the police are great.
- Some of the police aren't.
1. Mitchell was a dick.
2. One of the police, Rowland, appeared to be pretty awesome by not really giving a toss about the rude git. And furthermore giving so little of a toss that he didn't need to lie vindictively about the self-described "non event".
3. Other coppers lied.
Of course this reaffirms my previous bias:
- MPs are generally self-important douches.
- Some of the police are great.
- Some of the police aren't.
singlecoil said:
walm said:
Of course this reaffirms my previous bias:
- MPs are generally self-important douches.
- Some of the police are great.
- Some of the police aren't.
Perfect summary.- MPs are generally self-important douches.
- Some of the police are great.
- Some of the police aren't.
Isn't such labels likely to lead to delusions of self importance?
singlecoil said:
^^
Look at the Chief Constable Nick Gargan case.Someone here commented that they had heard, or thought, that PCC Sue Mountstevens had been told that she was having Nick Gargan has her Chief Constable as part of the deal as being backed at the Tory Police & Crime Commissioner candidate for Avon & Somerset police?
So former head of the National Policing Improvement Agency gets job as Chief Constable of Avon & Somerset and then rides roughshod over Data Protection legislation to snoop into the lives of colleagues and employees resulting in eight written final warnings for Misconduct.
PCC Sue Mountstevens told Chief Constable Nick Gargan the identity of the woman that made a complaint about his conduct. That would confirm suspicions that she was told by Tory HQ or the Home Office that she was having him as her Chief Constable?
'Future Leaders' doesn't sound like blue eyed boys and girls?
So someone is headhunted or talent spotted and becomes a favoured one. If they then mess up or break the law are they going to be held to account, embarasssing them as potential 'future leaders' and those above them and around them that talent spotted them?
Look at Dave Cameron, Prime Minsiter over ruling Civil Servants on Camila Batmanghelidjh and Kids Company, and Oliver Letwin not doing anything about Kids Company before the election as it could have been a vote loser.
Camila Batmanghelidjh is a blue eyed girl and walking fruit salad?
Is Camila Batmanghelidjh a Common Purpose trained future leader 'leading beyond authority'?
'Future Leaders' could be a convenient label to legitimise and promote nepotism and favouritism?
singlecoil said:
^^
Chief Constable Nick Gargan, former head of the National Policing Improvement Agency? Self important 'douche'?Camila Batmanghelidjh, founder of Kids Company? Self important 'douche'?
Common Purpose are a leading provider of self important 'douches'?
I even got the Labour Party leadership election in there.
carinaman said:
resulting in eight written final warnings for Misconduct.
Are you time travelling? I ask as there's another 7 days before he receives anything. carinaman said:
'Future Leaders' could be a convenient label to legitimise and promote nepotism and favouritism?
Or one to identify those with the potential to be future leaders. Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff