A thorny issue - illegal off-roading - any advice?

[hman]

In reality reporting it to the police is all you can do, as a member of the public you can ony assist with their enquiries.

You could open a 24/7 off road facility that matched the challenges of your local woods, charge a reasonable fee and probably coin it in.


With the advent of lightweight and powerful lighting, and the fact that byways and other legal UCR's dont have time restrictions on them (same as a paved road)then theres definitely nothing you can do about drivers/riders that stick to the legal routes.

Personally I thoroughly enjoy riding off road at night (on the byways and UCRs of course ;-)), in the full knowledge that its perfectly legal to do so. My bike isnt noisy (silencer repack regularly) and travelling at night makes you slow down anyway as theres a lot less detail even with very powerful lights.

I should mention that I have been stopped by the police at the end of a byway at night, they did a bike and person check, cited cable thefts as the reason (to which I replied "how much cable do you reckon I can carry on a motorbike?") and let me on my way. If you're goint to ride/drive at night in the lanes then make sure you are 100% legal as the fuzz to public ratio is much more in favour of the fuzz at midnight!

[300bhp/ton]

Mr2Mike said:

TheHeretic said:

A hoon. Ipad doesn't like hoon, apparently. The vast majority of offroaders do it slowly, legally, and considerately. There will always be a minority, (the street racers of the offroad world), who ruin it for the rest.

I've never been on a hoon, as in an organised high speed run with a group of cars. I have driven/riden fairly quickly on the road though, in appropriate areas.

As you are being a bit picky. In the UK there are no legal areas to drive quickly on the public roads. Unless of course you are saying you've never done more than 60mph on single carriageway road or 70 on a dual? I don't see how this is any more legal than the points you are picking up on? Arguably the speeding you have likely done is more risky and dangerous than almost any off roading activity in a 4x4 likely being conducted. And likely done with a higher degree of risk of injury to other people (unless you only drive on deserted roads that is).

[hman]

normally the complaint is the audible noise of bikes etc late at night, not speed or risk of injury.

The nimbies are tucked up in bed reading 50 shades of st flicking their bean when a motorcyle/4x4 exhaust interrupts their stroke and a call to the fuzz is then made.

[littleredrooster]

In the early 1980s, there was a concerted campaign by the horsey-crowd to get the use of lanes to themselves. They enlisted the help of the Ramblers and, as a combined voice, managed to get most of Britain's Byways and RUPPs downgraded to Bridleways and footpaths. This removed, at a stroke, all rights of way to vehicular traffic without so much as a by-your-leave.

At the time, there was no serious or organised voice to oppose them - I was in the Trail Riders Fellowship at the time and watched with dismay at what was happening.

As a group we predicted what would happen next, and the OP more-or-less just confirms this. Take the legal facility away and it will become a problem concentrated in certain areas.

The biggest irony of all, however is that selfish, stupid horse riders are very rarely seen on these bridleways which they took for themselves, preferring instead to ride their uncontrolled contraptions on the A426 (and the like) instead creating all manner of mayhem for trunk-road traffic.

[Hooli]

Good luck sorting it OP.

I used to do a lot of legal offroading & this sort of thing pissed me off too. When it's a hobby you enjoy getting ruined by morons is extremely frustrating.

[300bhp/ton]

Hooli said:

Good luck sorting it OP.

I used to do a lot of legal offroading & this sort of thing pissed me off too. When it's a hobby you enjoy getting ruined by morons is extremely frustrating.

But there is something important here missing from the op. How do we know it's illegal? Many legal activities still get reported and hassled about being illegal when they aren't.

I'm not saying this is the case, but the OP has been pretty vague and posted no additional replies. It might well be some, or indeed all of the activities they are complaining about are completely legal.

[300bhp/ton]

littleredrooster said:

In the early 1980s, there was a concerted campaign by the horsey-crowd to get the use of lanes to themselves. They enlisted the help of the Ramblers and, as a combined voice, managed to get most of Britain's Byways and RUPPs downgraded to Bridleways and footpaths. This removed, at a stroke, all rights of way to vehicular traffic without so much as a by-your-leave.

At the time, there was no serious or organised voice to oppose them - I was in the Trail Riders Fellowship at the time and watched with dismay at what was happening.

As a group we predicted what would happen next, and the OP more-or-less just confirms this. Take the legal facility away and it will become a problem concentrated in certain areas.

The biggest irony of all, however is that selfish, stupid horse riders are very rarely seen on these bridleways which they took for themselves, preferring instead to ride their uncontrolled contraptions on the A426 (and the like) instead creating all manner of mayhem for trunk-road traffic.

I will attest, many of the green lanes around my way were closed to vehicles and gated under various BS reasons. Many are now so over grown that you can't walk down them at some points of the year and many simply aren't used at all.

[larrylamb11]

Wow. Ok, obviously more contentious than I thought...
For the helpful posters pointing the 'people like you' accusatory finger, thanks for that I haven't said (nor ever would) that I am against legal and sustainable off-roading and indeed commented that I have enjoyed the same myself. Where legal off-roading damages the 'highway' such that it becomes unuseable for other recreational pursuits then I AM against it and would like to know the mechanics of seeking TROs to prohibit the use of such byways until it has recovered enough (or has been restored) for everyone to be able to use it again - be that on foot or by vehicle.

What (if any) are the legal obligations when using a byway (other than normal highway legalities) regarding damage to the 'roadway' or environment? educate me....

The largest problem for my local community though is mass illegal off-roading - 4x4s driving on common land including bridle paths, footpaths etc. and the resulting damage.
For 300bhp/ton - I understand your disbelief - frankly if I hadn't seen it with my own eyes I never would have believed that people would actually drive out to the countryside in the small hours of darkness to engage in mud-plugging... but there they were and there is even a poster in this thread describing his own illegal early morning off-roading, as helpful confirmation.
With regards the legality - it is primarily common land and is thus illegal (thank you, I do know where the byways are, which ones are restricted and which aren't and the legalities of driving on common land). There are no gates or fences to negotiate - ditches were dug a few years ago to disuade entry, but where these haven't been broken down by repeated attempts by off-roaders to 'conquer' them, they have simply been by-passed by driving around through the woodland.... or using the legal byway entry before branching off into the common land.
Lets not forget, irrespective of all the other factors - it is against the law! How does one go about endeavouring to ensure the law is upheld?

I fully understand the argument regarding limiting access and the inevitable increase in traffic to the areas still accessable. I don't have a solution to this, but the floor is open... I wouldn't have a problem with people using the area around me in the slightest if it was done legally and courteously - i.e. to the point where everyone could still use the countryside after off-roaders had enjoyed a play. Unfortunately, that isn't possible at present and I would like to know what steps can be taken to redress the balance so that a harmonious solution can be found.

Ultimately the countryside is an eco-system that off-roaders in my area appear to be increasingly treating as a 'recreational resource' rather than a natural habitat to be managed or just, well, left alone to go on being natural. The common sense judgement of whether it is a good idea to use or damage the countryside in pursuit of recreation seems to have evaporated to be replaced with the 'I am gonna have me some fun' or 'its my legal right' argument.... I would like to explore the options available for redressing this.

[Mr2Mike]

crusty said:

So to conclude, if people continue to reduce the number of places for people to go, and try and outlaw off-roading, you will see an increase in illegal off-roading. Plus the attitude of "it's not my problem to find a suitable alternative" will/has made the situation worse

This just harks back to what I said before i.e. cretins believing they are entitled to something, and that breaking the law is justified if they don't get what they are 'entitled' to.

There are still many thousands of legal green lanes to use around the country. If there is nothing local to you, then suck it up or move to somewhere where you can use them if they are such an important and essential part of your life.

[car crazy]

So you like off roading but not near you, could you not understand why my brain is shouting NIMBY

[Mr2Mike]

300bhp/ton said:

As you are being a bit picky. In the UK there are no legal areas to drive quickly on the public roads. Unless of course you are saying you've never done more than 60mph on single carriageway road or 70 on a dual? I don't see how this is any more legal than the points you are picking up on? Arguably the speeding you have likely done is more risky and dangerous than almost any off roading activity in a 4x4 likely being conducted. And likely done with a higher degree of risk of injury to other people (unless you only drive on deserted roads that is).

I'm not being picky at all. If someone exceed the speed limit on e.g. a Motorway or DCW, do you believe that has the same impact on peoples quality of life as illegally driving a 4x4 or dirt bike through land next to their house at unsocial hours?

I never speed in residential areas, villages etc. It's stupid, risky and unfair to the people that live there.

Edited by Mr2Mike on Friday 15th February 14:35

[Mr2Mike]

car crazy said:

So you like off roading but not near you, could you not understand why my brain is shouting NIMBY

No I can't, because I have said no such thing. There are green lanes near me and I have used them. If I moved to a house next to a legal green lane and didn't like the noise, I would have to suck it up. If people started illegally using woodland next to my house at unsocial hours I would be rightly pissed off and want to do something about it.

[300bhp/ton]

larrylamb11 said:

Wow. Ok, obviously more contentious than I thought...
For the helpful posters pointing the 'people like you' accusatory finger, thanks for that I haven't said (nor ever would) that I am against legal and sustainable off-roading and indeed commented that I have enjoyed the same myself. Where legal off-roading damages the 'highway' such that it becomes unuseable for other recreational pursuits then I AM against it and would like to know the mechanics of seeking TROs to prohibit the use of such byways until it has recovered enough (or has been restored) for everyone to be able to use it again - be that on foot or by vehicle.

Not wanting to burst your bubble. But there is almost nothing you can that would make a green lane un-passable on foot. Certainly nothing 4x4 induced.

And if you let vehicles use it, there will be evidence of it. Lets face it, there would have been grass, trees and wildlife where the M1 is before it was tarmaced. Now it is completely hostile to wildlife and is a complete eyesore that can be seen from several miles up in the air.


Also the things that damage lanes more than anything are:

-horses (they poach the wet ground)
-tractors and other heavy farm machinery (most damage occurring when wet after horses have poached the ground)


Light 4x4's and bikes do relatively little damage and it recovers quickly. Take this from someone who setups off trials events for Land Rovers. We have several sites, many are used very regularly and have a lot of vehicles driving on them. Actual evidence of where the vehicles go is amazingly small and should a month pass before reusing the site its amazing how much will have recovered.

larrylamb11 said:

What (if any) are the legal obligations when using a byway (other than normal highway legalities) regarding damage to the 'roadway' or environment? educate me....

There are codes, but if it's wet and muddy there is little you can do. I don't think there are any specific laws.

larrylamb11 said:

The largest problem for my local community though is mass illegal off-roading - 4x4s driving on common land including bridle paths, footpaths etc. and the resulting damage.

Can you prove this? On two counts:

1. That it actually is illegal and not just your opinion that it should be
2. That they are actually doing it, do you have photographic or video evidence?

larrylamb11 said:

For 300bhp/ton - I understand your disbelief - frankly if I hadn't seen it with my own eyes I never would have believed that people would actually drive out to the countryside in the small hours of darkness to engage in mud-plugging... but there they were and there is even a poster in this thread describing his own illegal early morning off-roading, as helpful confirmation.

A one off claim by a single person on a forum isn't proof that as you are claiming this is happening on mass 24/7. Can you put some numbers to this?

How many vehicles per day or week?
How many different vehicles does this include, or is it generally the same people?

larrylamb11 said:

With regards the legality - it is primarily common land and is thus illegal (thank you, I do know where the byways are, which ones are restricted and which aren't and the legalities of driving on common land).

Forgive me for doubting this. But I've heard it many times before, and in the vast majority of cases something else is the truth.

You may believe it is common land or restricted to vehicles. But have you actually checked? Can you substantiate your claim? If you can, then it goes a long way to helping your case. But be careful as you may find you are wrong, which will give you no case.

As said, I've personally witness a high rate local come storming into the middle of an MSA sanctioned Land Rover event proclaiming that we were all there illegally and had no right to be there. (They incidentally weren't on a public footpath and were trespassing). My Uncle is the land owner were the event was taking place and active participant in the Land Rover club. So there was no question on who was right or wrong.... but they still believed they were right.

larrylamb11 said:

There are no gates or fences to negotiate - ditches were dug a few years ago to disuade entry, but where these haven't been broken down by repeated attempts by off-roaders to 'conquer' them, they have simply been by-passed by driving around through the woodland.... or using the legal byway entry before branching off into the common land.

Were is this common land? Can you provide a Google maps link (or PM it to me?)

larrylamb11 said:

Lets not forget, irrespective of all the other factors - it is against the law!

What is???

And even if it is, it is for the courts to decide and Police to enforce.

larrylamb11 said:

How does one go about endeavouring to ensure the law is upheld?
I fully understand the argument regarding limiting access and the inevitable increase in traffic to the areas still accessable. I don't have a solution to this, but the floor is open... I wouldn't have a problem with people using the area around me in the slightest if it was done legally and courteously - i.e. to the point where everyone could still use the countryside after off-roaders had enjoyed a play.

Enjoyed for what??? Come on, please tell me exactly what you can no longer do because of this? I bet there isn't a single thing.

larrylamb11 said:

Unfortunately, that isn't possible at present and I would like to know what steps can be taken to redress the balance so that a harmonious solution can be found.

Have you thought about talking to them and asking if they could maybe keep it down a bit, or at least at night?

larrylamb11 said:

Ultimately the countryside is an eco-system that off-roaders in my area appear to be increasingly treating as a 'recreational resource' rather than a natural habitat to be managed or just, well, left alone to go on being natural.

eh??

Please explain, sorry but that sounds rather like meaningless waffle.

larrylamb11 said:

The common sense judgement of whether it is a good idea to use or damage the countryside in pursuit of recreation seems to have evaporated to be replaced with the 'I am gonna have me some fun' or 'its my legal right' argument.... I would like to explore the options available for redressing this.

So should football fields or any other recreational outdoor interest be treated the same??

Maybe even watching TV is bad, because years back were your house now pollutes the countryside it would have been wild and untamed....


The 'not in my back yard' attitude doesn't half get boring.

[Robb F]

Have you got any photos of the damage?

[Johnnytheboy]

Yet another thread in which PH gang up and tell the OP he is wrong.

That is also very boring.

[y2blade]

Larry it might help the townies understand if you post up some pictures of the damage done by 4x4s.

[TheHeretic]

Johnnytheboy said:

Yet another thread in which PH gang up and tell the OP he is wrong.

That is also very boring.

Do you want discussion, or a serious of posts saying 'I agree'?

[Johnnytheboy]

TheHeretic said:

Do you want discussion, or a serious of posts saying 'I agree'?

You call this a discussion?

[TheHeretic]

Johnnytheboy said:

You call this a discussion?

Yes. Where is it not. There are statements, questions, rebuttals, and so on. A discussion.

[Robb F]

I would

As someone who has no feelings one way or the other I like seeing the two sides being discussed.