A thorny issue - illegal off-roading - any advice?

[Colonial]

crusty said:

So, do you have an answer then or can you only manage condecending?

Or do you only do the smart remarks, like "all off roaders are morons"?

Serious question, if you want to ride or drive off road in the UK and all your options are being shut down, what do you do?

Campaign legally and mount compelling arguments, including viable locations backed up with modelling for the benefits. Like proposals for tracks. I have been involved with a couple.

This tends to be far more effective than acting like a petulant child, stamping your feet up and down and saying "IT'S NOT FAIR"

[Squiggs]

TheHeretic said:

I agree, but the considerate layers are out there, and always have been. Unfortunately they are being treated wrongly as knobs. These are the chaps who, as you say, use tread lightly, close gates behind them, pull up for other lane users, etc. As I have already said on this thread, I resent being piled in with the hooligans but looking at this thread the 'off road brigade' are all piled together in one tarred and feathered group.

Despite my rants I do feel sorry for minority of considerate off road users who's little noticed enjoyment has been going on for years and now seems to have been put under threat by inconsiderate, do what you want and destroy as much natural land as you can off roaders - who unfortunately seem to be the majority.

Edited by Squiggs on Tuesday 19th February 23:06

[anonymous-user]

Squiggs said:

crusty said:

Serious question, if you want to ride or drive off road in the UK and all your options are being shut down, what do you do?

Serious answer.
If the options of legally being allowed to do something are being shut down then you have to stop doing it - pure and simple!

Oh right, like Ramblers Anonymous did back in 1931?
We live in an (apparently) democratically free country, and part of that freedom includes responsibility for one's actions.
If an individual chooses to break the law, that decision is their right however morally wrong it may seem to others, but they do so on the understanding they may be brought to account and duly dealt with by a recognised judicial process, a process which is also an integral part of any democracy.
If the anti-4x4 brigade don't like it, well....by their own admission, tough. Anything else is illegal, and anytihng illegal won't be tolerated, apparently.

Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 19th February 23:02

[anonymous-user]

Colonial said:

Campaign legally and mount compelling arguments, including viable locations backed up with modelling for the benefits. Like proposals for tracks. I have been involved with a couple.

This tends to be far more effective than acting like a petulant child, stamping your feet up and down and saying "IT'S NOT FAIR"

So, basically, everything the Ramblers don't do?
Anyway, for those who think walking doesn't do any damage, please explain the need to do this to a footpath (in the Peak Distrcit) which has never, ever been used by 4x4s:

Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 19th February 23:08

[Colonial]

Squiggs said:

Despite my rants I do feel sorry for minority of considerate off road users who's little noticed enjoyment has been going on for years and now seems to have been put under threat by inconsiderate, do what you want and destroy as much natural land as can off roaders - who unfortunately seem to be the majority.

Yep. My uncle lives besides a fire trail. All good. Until about 4 years ago.

They now wait until there has been a lot of rain, and then go an play on it. So much so that it is now pretty much impassable.

The local 4WD club are a very good organisation and have been performing repairs on it, but then it rains again and the feral "I know my rights, just try and stop me" mob move in and trash it.

So, the gate has been locked. There is no more access. Except for the Rural Fire Service and members of the 4WD club that have been looking after it.

Works for me.

[Boshly]

crusty said:

Boshly said:

Natural England are Nimby's???

From their website...

Enjoying the natural environment


Natural England wants to ensure that everybody has the opportunity to use, understand, engage with and be inspired by the natural environment. We also want an increasing number of people to take action to conserve it.



There are many places where you can enjoy the natural environment, whether you're looking for healthy exercise, the challenge of a long walk, a horse or cycle ride, or whether you want to experience nature, or appreciate its quiet tranquillity and inspiring landscapes.


Does that come across as an agency that would support off road motorised sport?

So NIMBY means anti offroad Motorised sport?

Do you know what it stands for or you do you just not know how to reason?

[larrylamb11]

crusty said:

Just to update this thread with some reality...
I was due to ride the Witley Classic Enduro this weekend ...received the following email

Witley MCC regrets to inform you that we have ...to withdraw.... We are terribly sorry ....

Anyone want to have another guess at why people ride illegally???????

I am genuinely sorry to hear that your event has been cancelled - I fully apprceiate that it must be enormously frustrating. Hopefully you can find another event to attend where you can engage in your chosen leisure pursuit.
I am guessing people ride illegally because they are ultimately selfish, have no regard for the law, no sense of resoponsibility, morals or conscience.... but you tell me why you think they do it and we will see if we can start addressing these reasons, STOP them from doing it and redress the 'anarchy'...

crusty said:

Indeed

Now suppose you had an interest in off roading. (obviously you don't)

You tried to be polite to other non-motorised users and tried to be respectful of their needs, but were constantly met with hostility

You stuck to the legal places, but over time they became fewer and fewer.

So you did the decent thing and found new places to ride, but they became further and further away.

Then it got to a stage that events started being cancelled and that no-one wanted you to ride or drive anywhere.

You are now left with two choices

1. Give up

2. fk eh all

For the record I don't ride illegally, but I fully support those that do, because Nimbys like you do not accept that there is enough land for all to enjoy their various sports

I am a firm believer in live and let live and the wkers on this thread that cannot support those of us who want to muck about with bikes and cars in the mud can fk off.

I am sure there will be some clever answers to this, so go on shoot me down in flames

Hmmm... I appreciate that this is an emotive subject - it is for me too, but I am not sure you have really helped with this post....

I too am a firm believer in live and let live and DO support those who want to muck about off road legally and with consideration for the environment and others - I have done it (legally) myself - I certainly don't support those who do it illegaly and never will. What gives anyone the right to break the law, damage the environment, inconvenience and deprive others of their legal rights? Why on earth can't off-roaders (illegal or otherwise) accept the fact that there ISN'T enough land in the UK for everyone to enjoy their various pursuits? If there WAS enough there would never be any conflicts. There are conflicts and there is illegal use - how do we go about stamping it out so we can all go about enjoying what is left (and rapidly diminishing) legally and responsibly?

Given the two choices you outline above I would 1) Give up, becuase I am a reasonable, considerate and essentially law-abiding citizen of this democratic nation...

Caulkhead said:

Time for a reasoned view on this thread.

I've been off-roading and green-laning since the eighties .....
Anyone who can't tell the difference between a pay and play day and a green lane shouldn't be laning.

So for me that's the basis of it - laning has become anti-social because laners have become anti-social. .... Now most people see laners as nothing more than yobs who don't give a toss about the environment and given your average contemporary laner, I can't blame them.

A very well put post and a great deal I agree with. The reality should be that any seasoned, reasonable green laner would approach the byways near me, assess them as too damaged to pass without causing further damage and move on to somewhere else - it is the 'yobbo' element that have been ruining it for everyone else. How can we stamp out this 'yobbo', "do anything we please" brigade? Anti-social is an apt description.

TheHeretic said:

I agree, but the considerate layers are out there, and always have been. Unfortunately they are being treated wrongly as knobs. These are the chaps who, as you say, use tread lightly, close gates behind them, pull up for other lane users, etc. As I have already said on this thread, I resent being piled in with the hooligans but looking at this thread the 'off road brigade' are all piled together in one tarred and feathered group.

I would like to think that I am not so bigoted as to group 'all-green-laners' together and recognise that there are considerate, law-abiding laners who approach their pursuit in the gentlemanly manner one would expect. There are also an exponentially growing number of hooligans - I think it is fair to assume that the majority of damage depicted in my photos on page 6 is not caused by the former. Is there a way that the responsible green laners can help tp re-educate the 'hooligans' to raise the overall standard of conduct off-road, so that conflicts like those experienced here are minimised?

rscott said:

crusty said:

Serious question, if you want to ride or drive off road in the UK and all your options are being shut down, what do you do?

Serious answer - you campaign for legal options. If that fails, then you stop. Or you break the law and risk prosecution.

For an example of the above - hunting.

Well said.

To bring this back on topic, many thanks for the interesting and varied responses and useful suggestions, many of which I have acted upon (local council contacted etc.).

To recap - I am experiencing two (related) problems - the principal and major problem is one of illegal off-roading, motorised vehicles (principally 4x4s) driving over Common land where there are NO vehicle access rights. By doing this they are severely damaging ancient woodland classified as an Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty, driving bridle paths, footpaths and through virgin woodland. Even since this thread was started a new completely virgin area of Common land has been pushed onto and severely (criminally) damaged with vehicle tracks.
The second, related, problem is that of severe damage to byways that, whilst legal to use, are being damaged by vehicle use such that they are no longer passable for other classes of user - I am asking the council to assess these to see if the byway can either be restored so that they are passable again or re-classified to prevent vehicle use and thus limit damage caused by vehicles (even though that will prevent me from driving my local byways as I have in summers past). It is fair to assume that the most likely cause of damage to these byways is from a growing crowd of 'irresponsible' off-roaders who have no regard for the law or environment and who are using these byways for 'mud plugging' and as access to then engage in illegal off-roading on Common land (clearly law-abiding, reasonable and responsible off-roaders would not engage in any of these activities).

So, does anybody have any further suggestions on how to prevent this illegal off-roading? how to redress the balance of byway use so that everyone can enjoy this beautiful part of the country? who else to contact to bring about a resolution to these issues? or anything to suggest that might help me prevent an area I care about being criminally damaged?

[Squiggs]

Crossflow Kid said:

So, basically, everything the Ramblers don't do?
Anyway, for those who think walking doesn't do any damage, please explain the need to do this to a footpath (in the Peak Distrcit) which has never, ever been used by 4x4s:

Edited by Crossflow Kid on Tuesday 19th February 23:08

Obviously that is a well used foot path and protection has been put down to prevent future erosion - and in the main most walkers will be accepting of the fact that a piece of natural environment needs protecting from its own popularity. They will stick to the protective path from where they can continue to respect and enjoy & admire the countryside without causing it any further damage.
Generally walkers will not be of the same mind set as you have described a lot off roaders, whereby if one place is being protected from environmental damaging activities they simply find another piece of pristine countryside to disrespect, damage and cause a new spate of erosion to - regardless of whether they are legally allowed access to the land or not.

Edited by Squiggs on Wednesday 20th February 12:17

Edited by Squiggs on Wednesday 20th February 13:11

[bramley]

TheHeretic said:

You know that is a Land Rover thing? Doesn't apply to Toyota, Suzuki, Nissan, etc?

I didn't know that. How did it come about? I just thought it was the ultimate chav-loser badge.

[zippyprorider]

telecat said:

It's tricky. As Trials Bikers we run bikes that are pretty silent and to be honest Muddy ground isn't what we are looking at. However as "bikers" we tend to get tarred with the same brush as MX, Quad and Pit bike riders. The last two tend to be worst as they buy a bike with no thought as to where to ride them. Then there are the 4X4's who get a cheap landy or Toyota and try to do the a "Dakar" with no skill. I can have sympathy but I would look at where they are coming from.

For Example "Flappits" in Bradford was a local spot where these guys went and played around at the weekend. It also kept them off the land the Motorsport clubs used. The Landowner was OK with it and even the Police were in support. However the Bradford Council decided it didn't want them there and thanks to the efforts of a couple of idiots they managed to shut it. The Result is increased levels of illegal off road riding and 4x4 drivers. Bradford Council seem to think they would all go away when "Flappits" closed. We now have to fight to keep the land that Motorsports have used for years due to these people thinking it's OK to use it.

But thanks to Bradford city council getting in is the most fun lol

[Red Devil]

crusty said:

Just to update this thread with some reality...
I was due to ride the Witley Classic Enduro this weekend ...received the following email

Witley MCC regrets to inform you that we have ...to withdraw.... We are terribly sorry ....

larrylamb11 said:

So, does anybody have any further suggestions on how to prevent this illegal off-roading? how to redress the balance of byway use so that everyone can enjoy this beautiful part of the country? who else to contact to bring about a resolution to these issues? or anything to suggest that might help me prevent an area I care about being criminally damaged?

Maybe the answer is right there above. If they can force cancellation of an event which has received authorisation by the Forestry Commission and the necessary fees paid, they have some serious clout. You mention the land being abused in your case is in an AONB. I'm sure that would get their juices flowing.

Contact info here.

[Mojocvh]

When I was living in France the "locals" used to have an annual charity "bash" a 24 hour blast over a weekend. This was an established thing and had the full support of the local communé.

The local trailers were by and large a benign lot, keeping out of most peoples way, and during the summer were fair game for the gendarmes to beat the crap out of when found on the road wearing nothing but their Armani's

The reason they were so "restrained" was they didn't want to lose the chance of a 24 all out blast around this..





see how it's supposed to work?

[TheHeretic]

bramley said:

TheHeretic said:

You know that is a Land Rover thing? Doesn't apply to Toyota, Suzuki, Nissan, etc?

I didn't know that. How did it come about? I just thought it was the ultimate chav-loser badge.

Camel Trophy.

[Mr2Mike]

car crazy said:

(free country, supposedly

Clearly you have no idea what "free country" means. Hint: It doesn't mean you are free to break any laws you feel like with impunity.

[anonymous-user]

Squiggs said:

Crossflow Kid said:

So, basically, everything the Ramblers don't do?
Anyway, for those who think walking doesn't do any damage, please explain the need to do this to a footpath (in the Peak Distrcit) which has never, ever been used by 4x4s:

Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 19th February 23:08

Obviously that is a well used foot path and protection has been put down to prevent future erosion - and in the main most walkers will be accepting of the fact that a piece of natural environment needs protecting from its own popularity. They will stick to the protective path from where they can continue to respect and enjoy & admire the countryside without causing it any further damage.

Oh, so walkers do cause damage to the environment then?
Great, best we ban them then.

[anonymous-user]

Mr2Mike said:

car crazy said:

(free country, supposedly

Clearly you have no idea what "free country" means. Hint: It doesn't mean you are free to break any laws you feel like with impunity.

No, it means you're free to break them on the understanding you'll face a fair and just judicial process and accept the findings thereof.

[Efbe]

Mr2Mike said:

car crazy said:

(free country, supposedly

Clearly you have no idea what "free country" means. Hint: It doesn't mean you are free to break any laws you feel like with impunity.

no; it means a country in which laws are dictated to you by people that were born into wealth and power.

There is no exit, or way out, the entire world is governed by people like this. The initial idea of a democratic society was one you would agree to and choose to join. Having laws dictated to you by the elite, offspring of more elite, who were the offspring of yet more elite... (etc) is well, a dictatorship.

[Some Gump]

Crossflow Kid said:

Squiggs said:

Crossflow Kid said:

So, basically, everything the Ramblers don't do?
Anyway, for those who think walking doesn't do any damage, please explain the need to do this to a footpath (in the Peak Distrcit) which has never, ever been used by 4x4s:

Edited by Crossflow Kid on Tuesday 19th February 23:08

Obviously that is a well used foot path and protection has been put down to prevent future erosion - and in the main most walkers will be accepting of the fact that a piece of natural environment needs protecting from its own popularity. They will stick to the protective path from where they can continue to respect and enjoy & admire the countryside without causing it any further damage.

Oh, so walkers do cause damage to the environment then?
Great, best we ban them then.

Don't be a knob CK. The equivilkent within this thread is if all the path around the stones was fooked - noone is complaining against off roading where it causes little, no, or managable damage. Same with the walkers here.

[Petrolhead95]

300bhp/ton said:

Mr2Mike said:

I'm not being picky at all. If someone exceed the speed limit on e.g. a Motorway or DCW, do you believe that has the same impact on peoples quality of life as illegally driving a 4x4 or dirt bike through land next to their house at unsocial hours?

Honestly yes.

Because I doubt very much that anybodies quality of life is truly being effected by 4x4's.

Driving at high speed on a motorway will make noise too.

Are you really that oblivious to life or are you just purposely trying to be difficult? I don't normal comment on other peoples comments but this honestly made me shake my head in embarrassment.

Just looking through your replies in this thread make me wonder what goes through some peoples heads.

[f1rob]

Ride or drive the Gap road in Breacon the 2 times during the year its open to vehicles and the amount of flack you get from walkers is amazing,the amount of damage the walkers have inflicted on the surrounding slopes is even more amazing !