Twelve points?

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Nigel Worc's

8,121 posts

187 months

Sunday 28th April 2013
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Fubar1977 said:
Nigel Worc's said:
Fubar1977 said:
I agree that sometimes its just bad luck or misfortune but, I'm sorry, you don't get to 24 points by being a slightly careless high mileage driver.
Plenty of people drive for a living all over the country and most don't run around with 20 plus points on their licence, usually because they'd be out of a job.
He must be good at what he does and have a very understanding boss to pay the premiums on that.

Not looking to argue with you Nigel, just stating my opinion, I'm sure he's a top bloke but if that's all speed related he needs to slow down and observe a bit more imo.

I do take the point that it very much depends on the offences that lead to the points in determine whether the person is "safe" to be on the road but I imagine the cost of insurance would price most very high point drivers off the road even if they didn't receive a ban.
I'd live to know the cost of insuring, say a mid 30s male with 24 points on a modest car.
On a fleet the size his company run, I doubt anything the driver does matters for insurance really, as long as they have a licence, all is ok.

And yes, he is very good at what he does, he's the senior engineer there, and I think the boss of the UK operation had 15 points, something like that.

Not everyone worries about these things, I know some companies can be a bit more anal now, he can still smoke in his company car, for example (well nobody checks if you know what I'm suggesting).

I'm not sure I'd be able to go back to being an employee these days, (not that I ever could, health and safety now prevents someone from employing me in the role I have, due to my diabetes), if you've any hang ups on employees smoking etc etc, I wouldn't be a good bet to have, as I'd tell you where to go.
Thanks Nigel that's interesting.
The last time I worked for someone else it was only a very small operation. (6 vehicles, small business) and on our policy the insurer wanted to know of all endorsements and there was definitely an issue if a driver got up to 9 points, especially if any of them were accrued in a works vehicle.
Effectively if you got over 9 you pretty much needed to start looking for a job.
I would imagine its a different ball-game in a large operation.
I don't think I could go back to working for someone else either.

24 seems a hell of a lot of points to explain, I mean what happens if you're already on, say 16 points and then have to explain why you should get another 6 for example, and not get banned?
I not saying everybody with that number of points should be banned, it depends why the points were given that should determine that, it's just what you'd actually give as mitigation given how far over you'd be under totting up rules.
Presumably exceptional hardship?
I don't truly know how he did it, I just know he did, I saw his licence, I saw the points.

His company can afford Nick Freeman if they wish, I was under the impression you could only use exceptional hardship once, so who knows ?

He hasn't really learnt to be honest, I don't think he's ever been on less than six since I've known him, like it says on the opening speech of Ronnie Barkers Porridge, he accepts it as an occupational hazard.

I've been passenger with him many times, he's over the speed limit often, but not massively, just nearly all the time.

Magog

2,652 posts

188 months

Sunday 28th April 2013
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simonas said:
Exceptional Hardship arguements are quite common in court as well. Out of all the applications I have made only one has been turned down and I suspect that had more to do with the magistrates opinion of the bloke as opposed to his quite valid arguement.
What sort of 'exceptional hardship' do you have to demonstrate in order to not be banned, could you give us some real life examples?

10 Pence Short

32,880 posts

216 months

Monday 29th April 2013
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A couple of examples...

Your wife is disabled and needs to be taken to physio once a week in the evening, or she suffers massive pain- you are the only person who can take her.

You run a very small business and you have 3 employees who will lose their job if you cannot travel to sales appointments to sustain the business.

Typically, it involves an argument that innocent others will suffer disproportionately if you lose your ability to drive.

You cannot use the same exceptional hardship excuse within any 3 year period.

SS2.

14,455 posts

237 months

Monday 29th April 2013
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Magog said:
What sort of 'exceptional hardship' do you have to demonstrate in order to not be banned, could you give us some real life examples?
By definition, 'exceptional hardship' goes beyond normal hardship, and is more likely to be viewed as such if it would have negative consequences for innocent parties.

Example - you have an elderly relative who lives out in the sticks and is in need of regular hospital visits. In the absence of public transport serving their village, and with no reliable network of friends or family who are able to assist, they are reliant upon you to provide the transportation.

If you were to be disqualified, this would clearly have a significant negative affect on your relative and, as such, the resulting hardship may well be regarded by the Magistrates as being 'exceptional'.


Fubar1977

916 posts

139 months

Monday 29th April 2013
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Thanks guys, i`ve learnt a few things on here today.
Up until today I wasn`t aware you could still drive with so many points, I knew you could go over 12 and still drive just didn`t know how far over.

Interesting stuff.
Exceptional hardship then seems to be if it will cause other people than yourself to suffer if you lose your license (in the main).


Wozy68

5,387 posts

169 months

Monday 29th April 2013
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Fubar1977 said:
Thanks guys, i`ve learnt a few things on here today.
Up until today I wasn`t aware you could still drive with so many points, I knew you could go over 12 and still drive just didn`t know how far over.

Interesting stuff.
Exceptional hardship then seems to be if it will cause other people than yourself to suffer if you lose your license (in the main).

12 points is a ban isn't it. Ie you can't have more than 11 on your licence (unles of hardship) and be able to drive. 12 is normally 6 month ban?

Ms Demeanor

769 posts

174 months

Monday 29th April 2013
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Just another thought - assuming this is an academic discussion..At the moment we are having a lot of success getting reduced totting bans. You still have to argue exceptional hardship by giving evidence on oath, if the court agrees you try and persuade them to give a reduced totting ban (it has to be under s.35 RTOA and not a discretionary ban under s.34 RTOA). Finding exceptional hardship means that they can give no ban or a reduced ban..

A reduced ban has the effect of wiping the slate clean - therefore all the points that led to the reduced totting ban cannot be added up again in the future. You cannot argue E/H on the same grounds again within 3 years, but you probably won't need to...

Victor McDade

4,395 posts

181 months

Monday 29th April 2013
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More than 8000 drivers have 12 or more points on their licence, 14 UK drivers have more than 25 points, a male driver from Warrington has the highest number of points, 36. That's according to the figures obtained under a Freedom of Information request by the Institute of Advanced Motorists.



http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/8000-motorist...

monthefish

20,439 posts

230 months

Monday 29th April 2013
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myvision said:
Can you still drive with twelve points?
If you amass 3 x 3 points in a month say, so you're at 9 points.

And then 3 years, 2 months later, you get another 3 points and then a week later, another 3 points.

Surely in this scenario, you'll have 15 points on your licenece, but only 6 of them counting for totting up, and you'll be fine to drive?

Chris Stott

13,191 posts

196 months

Monday 29th April 2013
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Not sure how anyone can get to 24 points as I though the rules on exceptional hardship were you were only allowed to use this as a defense once in any 3 year period?

I ran up 9 points back in 1998 and then got caught again), went to court, pled exceptional hardship, the court accepted the plea, didn't ban me, but gave me another 6 points and a large fine. So I then had 15 points. The Magistrate said at the time any further offence would mean a ban as I couldn't use that defense again until the points were cleared.

SS2.

14,455 posts

237 months

Monday 29th April 2013
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Chris Stott said:
Not sure how anyone can get to 24 points as I though the rules on exceptional hardship were you were only allowed to use this as a defense once in any 3 year period?
There's no limit on how many times you can ask for exceptional hardship to be taken into consideration but, if you are spared a ban (or given a shorter ban), you wouldn't be permitted to use the same reasons for the next 3 years.

Chris Stott

13,191 posts

196 months

Monday 29th April 2013
quotequote all
SS2. said:
Chris Stott said:
Not sure how anyone can get to 24 points as I though the rules on exceptional hardship were you were only allowed to use this as a defense once in any 3 year period?
There's no limit on how many times you can ask for exceptional hardship to be taken into consideration but, if you are spared a ban (or given a shorter ban), you wouldn't be permitted to use the same reasons for the next 3 years.
What else would you use exceptional hardship for other than to avoid a totting up ban? If you had 9 points, and you used that plea to avoid a ban, giving you say 12-15 points (depending on how many points the court impose whilst still waiving the ban), how do you subsequently get to 24 points without being banned... I'm assuming that if you have 9 and get caught again, a Court wouldn't accept the plea and give you 15 points extra in one hit... there would have to be multiple offenses beyond the 11 point limit to take someone to 24.

Aretnap

1,643 posts

150 months

Monday 29th April 2013
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monthefish said:
If you amass 3 x 3 points in a month say, so you're at 9 points.

And then 3 years, 2 months later, you get another 3 points and then a week later, another 3 points.

Surely in this scenario, you'll have 15 points on your licenece, but only 6 of them counting for totting up, and you'll be fine to drive?
Yes. Which is a point all the "x000 drivers have 12 or more points" newspaper stories seem to miss - they never make clear whether they're counting points acquired over 3 or 4 years. Probably because they don;t know themselves - they just ask the DVLA "how many drivers have 12 or more points" and print a shock horror story about the answer. They never clarify how many of those drivers have actually acquired their points over a 3 year period.

FWIW the Magistrates Association estimates that around 10% of drivers who reach 12 points make an exceptional hardship case, rather than the much higher rates which are sometimes claimed ( linky). They also suggest that most of the drivers who have a very large number of points have managed to avoid a ban because of breakdown in the communication system rather than because magistrates are actually letting them off time and time again like saps.

Another way you could get a very large number of points and avoid being banned would be if you commit a large number of offences in a short space of time (perhaps you fail to notice a speed limit on moving into a new area, and get caught by the same speed camera every day for a week) and you have them all dealt with at a single hearing and make a single exceptional hardship plea.

SS2.

14,455 posts

237 months

Monday 29th April 2013
quotequote all
Chris Stott said:
What else would you use exceptional hardship for other than to avoid a totting up ban?
It's the same reasons that cannot be used again in any 3 year period, not the exception hardship plea itself.

For instance - if you successfully claimed that Aunt Ida would suffer unduly because you couldn't ferry her to the hospital once a week and the court spared your licence on this basis, you'd have to find another reason (or reasons) for exceptional hardship if you found yourself facing a further totting ban within 3 years.

Aretnap

1,643 posts

150 months

Monday 29th April 2013
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Chris Stott said:
What else would you use exceptional hardship for other than to avoid a totting up ban? If you had 9 points, and you used that plea to avoid a ban, giving you say 12-15 points (depending on how many points the court impose whilst still waiving the ban), how do you subsequently get to 24 points without being banned... I'm assuming that if you have 9 and get caught again, a Court wouldn't accept the plea and give you 15 points extra in one hit... there would have to be multiple offenses beyond the 11 point limit to take someone to 24.
You can make as many exceptional hardship pleas as you like, you just have to base each one on a different set of circumstances. So if you get to 12 points and you're spared a ban because you'll lose your job and your family will be made homeless you can't use that argument again for three years. However if by the time you get to 15 points you've acquired an elderly relative who needs you to take her to hospital appointments, you can use that to avoid a ban next time round. Ideally you would then become a football manager, allowing you to plead exceptional hardship affecting an entire city when you get to 18 points...

In practice though very few people are going to have so many circumstances that they can make EH pleas again and again like that, so I suspect that most of the people you hear of with very large numbers of points have either got them all in a single court hearing, or else they haven't been banned because of a glitch in the system rather than because someone actually thinks they shouldn't be banned.

Chris Stott

13,191 posts

196 months

Monday 29th April 2013
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OK, I get it now smile

Still seems strange that you'd be able to get 24 points!

simonas

65 posts

205 months

Monday 29th April 2013
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Magog said:
What sort of 'exceptional hardship' do you have to demonstrate in order to not be banned, could you give us some real life examples?
funnily enough most of the ex hardship arguements I have done are for bouncers and debt collectors!! They would suffer the hardship of losing work as would the staff who work for them , or their kids in one case who they had to drive to private school etc. Builders who are small operations and only the builder can drive the van and staff would lose their jobs etc#

People tend to get lots of points when they have multiple summons awaiting them and qwhen dealt with together end up with lots of different sets of points and ex hardship arguement made on the final hearing

anonymous-user

53 months

Monday 29th April 2013
quotequote all
Nigel Worc's said:
Fubar1977 said:
I agree that sometimes its just bad luck or misfortune but, I'm sorry, you don't get to 24 points by being a slightly careless high mileage driver.
Plenty of people drive for a living all over the country and most don't run around with 20 plus points on their licence, usually because they'd be out of a job.
He must be good at what he does and have a very understanding boss to pay the premiums on that.

Not looking to argue with you Nigel, just stating my opinion, I'm sure he's a top bloke but if that's all speed related he needs to slow down and observe a bit more imo.

I do take the point that it very much depends on the offences that lead to the points in determine whether the person is "safe" to be on the road but I imagine the cost of insurance would price most very high point drivers off the road even if they didn't receive a ban.
I'd live to know the cost of insuring, say a mid 30s male with 24 points on a modest car.
On a fleet the size his company run, I doubt anything the driver does matters for insurance really, as long as they have a licence, all is ok.

And yes, he is very good at what he does, he's the senior engineer there, and I think the boss of the UK operation had 15 points, something like that.

Not everyone worries about these things, I know some companies can be a bit more anal now, he can still smoke in his company car, for example (well nobody checks if you know what I'm suggesting).

I'm not sure I'd be able to go back to being an employee these days, (not that I ever could, health and safety now prevents someone from employing me in the role I have, due to my diabetes), if you've any hang ups on employees smoking etc etc, I wouldn't be a good bet to have, as I'd tell you where to go.
Utter bks. IF this mate exists and it's a big if, he must be an utter fkwit.

Nigel Worc's

8,121 posts

187 months

Monday 29th April 2013
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REALIST123 said:
Utter bks. IF this mate exists and it's a big if, he must be an utter fkwit.
Oh please tell oh know it all, what is utter bks.

s like you amuse me, a nice thread, all playing nicely, even a newspaper article showing you how many drivers are on more than 12 points, all escaping bans, then you come along to educate us all.

Actually don't bother replying, fk off and annoy someone else !

Collectingbrass

2,198 posts

194 months

Tuesday 30th April 2013
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I drove with twelve points for a while, although it was some time ago when I was young & stupid. Basically I was on 6 (3 for speed & 3 for a red light) & just inside 3 years of the first speeding offence I got nicked at a shade under 100*.

As the plod at the time said, if I'd been doing over 100** it would have been a 1 week ban and all points would have been cleared. As it was, I had to wait 5 months for the case to get to court*** where I was given 6 ponts, making 12 in all and fair sized fine. I kept my licence as I needed it to work to keep house, home & the SWT.

I carried those 12 for quite some time, a couple of years as I recall when you include the 4th year of "taken into consideration", and it was far better for my driving behaviour than the 1 week instant ban and clean would have been. I don't recall it having much impact on my insurance, but it was censored years ago. I do seem to remember at least 1 broker (yes, that long ago) explaining that as the totting was _only_ due to speeding it didn't count as badly as TWOCing or D&D would have done.

X neither I nor the plod believed that a ropey old escort van would do 96.4mph over 0.208 miles but there you go.
XX Plod declined my offer to have another go and see if I could get it that high.
XXX Grays Magistrates court in Essex. The Judges, my barrister and I were the only ones in suits...

Edited by Collectingbrass on Tuesday 30th April 13:17

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