MLM fines come into place today

[Dizeee]

Snowboy said:

My guess is that the police will use this as a way of warning motorists.
Pulling over an mlm, threatening them with the fine, then letting them off if they promise to stop doing it.

That's whats happening at the moment, officers are feeling that they should be able to deal with it, and finally can now state "it has been made a specific offence" rather than as before whereby you had to make it fit somehow into a much broader offence. However, nothing has changed in terms of how it can actually be dealt with so the end result is the same.

[anonymous-user]

DIzeee, Just to cover all of your posts regarding no changes and how long it will take and your general comments..........

Google the new driver fines and go to the Hampshire and Isle of Wight police force comments today (can't get link to work)

This was about 30 mins ago but I guess it's just more Internet rubbish eh?


Edit due to link fail!!!

Edited by anonymous-user on Friday 16th August 09:40

[Tom8]

If we are all sat I a traffic jam together and start moving we should all be done for tail gaiting. We could pay off the deficit in one day on the M25.

[10 Pence Short]

Dizeee said:

Aggressive tailgating may fall into a Sec 3 remit, but general tailgating, undertaking and lane hogging very rarely so.

I don't think you have a great undrstanding of s3, particularly 'inconsiderate driving'. Perhaps it's this poor awareness that's as much a historical problem in ability to deal as anything else?

[Apache]

Would it not be far simpler to use those totally useless motorway information signs to tell people not to tailgate or hog the middle lane? I guess the operators consider it more beneficial to slow everyone down to 50mph for a non existent obstacle.....not that anyone does.

Much as I support them, who is going to enforce these new laws? I still see trucks having to overtake teenage girls texting on the M25

[thetapeworm]

LeoZwalf said:

Bit surprised there's no thread on this already especially as it's such a bugbear of most PHers!

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=10&t=1293395

[Dizeee]

10 Pence Short said:

I don't think you have a great undrstanding of s3, particularly 'inconsiderate driving'. Perhaps it's this poor awareness that's as much a historical problem in ability to deal as anything else?

No.

You may have done time but that does not make you the fount of legal knowledge nor expert in how law is implemented by police services.

I'm not being led into a debate over it, believe what you want, it doesn't matter as it doesn't change the reality of how traffic law is implemented by officers, edited by CPS and then interpreted within the courts - something I did for 13 years.

I posted on this thread to state that for at least the Met and no doubt many other area's, the BBC news link (which is also very inaccurate as it talks of £40 seatbelt fines) is the first many have heard of this, and there have been no provisions made for on the spot fines.

[Dizeee]

NorfolkInClue1 said:

DIzeee, Just to cover all of your posts regarding no changes and how long it will take and your general comments..........

Google the new driver fines and go to the Hampshire and Isle of Wight police force comments today (can't get link to work)

This was about 30 mins ago but I guess it's just more Internet rubbish eh?


Edit due to link fail!!!

Edited by NorfolkInClue1 on Friday 16th August 09:40

Interested to see the link if you can get it to work, what did it say?

[DaveCWK]

These new regs are poorly defined and surely unenforceable. You can't avoid being In the wrong lane at several Hertfordshire roundabouts owing to the poor signage and worn road markings. And what do they mean by forcing your way in at the front of a queue? Surely not using merge in turn correctly?

I don't like the direction this is heading in one bit.

[10 Pence Short]

Dizee, the problem has never been with the offences available. My understanding is there are not new offences created here.

The problem has been at the enforcement end; Police forces don't like the time, cost and hassle of court cases for someone hogging the middle lane, for example.

The new FPN ability simply draws on the existing offences and allows a roadside disposal. That is all, as far as I can see (I may be wrong), that has changed.

[anonymous-user]

Dizeee said:

NorfolkInClue1 said:

DIzeee, Just to cover all of your posts regarding no changes and how long it will take and your general comments..........

Google the new driver fines and go to the Hampshire and Isle of Wight police force comments today (can't get link to work)

This was about 30 mins ago but I guess it's just more Internet rubbish eh?


Edit due to link fail!!!

Edited by anonymous-user on Friday 16th August 09:40

Interested to see the link if you can get it to work, what did it say?

This is the whole text pasted from the Isle of Wight County Press Online headline this morning.........


NEW fines for driving offences, which came in to force today (Friday), have been welcomed by Hampshire and Isle of Wight police.

Fixed penalty notices have been introduced for drivers caught tailgating, anti-social driving such as stunts like handbrake turns or driving inappropriately on the motorway.

Acting Ch Insp Richard Parsons, of the Roads Policing Unit, said: "Hampshire Constabulary is committed to ensuring the safety of our road users and reducing road casualties across the two counties.  We continually work to cut casualties and welcome any changes that will help us do that.

"We apply this law through a mixture of enforcement and education, and we’d rather prevent it from happening in the first place through raising public awareness.

"Careless driving is not a new law, but this change in the fixed penalty notice system is another step towards a less bureaucratic way of dealing with motoring offences and avoiding lengthy court processes, enabling us to make more effective use of our resources."



I read this as stating that they will be enforcing from today and knew all about it, maybe I'm wrong but hey ho, I will still see a mass of numptys as I trundle up the M6 to Scotland without a police car in sight!

[petergukM500]

Dizeee said:

and finally can now state "it has been made a specific offence"

Has it? I thought it was and still is DWDCA. The only difference being now DWDCA can be dealt with by a FPN instead of court.

[Dizeee]

The fines highlight specific types of behaviour and render them directly punishable. That behaviour may have been punishable prior to these new disposal options, but it would have depended on the exact circs, whether an officer deemed it worthy of a court hearing or not, whether CPS then agreed with that decision, and then a day at court. Therefore it was with some ambiguity or vagueness that many drivers may have been reported for the offence.

The supposed new fines (that so far don't physically exist) do make new offences though don't they? Whereas before you might get reported for it, or might not, and there was that grey area, now it IS an offence to tailgate / hog the middle lane / whatever else is supposed to be included in this elusive new scheme.

[petergukM500]

Dizeee said:

The fines highlight specific types of behaviour and render them directly punishable. That behaviour may have been punishable prior to these new disposal options, but it would have depended on the exact circs, whether an officer deemed it worthy of a court hearing or not, whether CPS then agreed with that decision, and then a day at court. Therefore it was with some ambiguity or vagueness that many drivers may have been reported for the offence.

The supposed new fines (that so far don't physically exist) do make new offences though don't they? Whereas before you might get reported for it, or might not, and there was that grey area, now it IS an offence to tailgate / hog the middle lane / whatever else is supposed to be included in this elusive new scheme.

So no new offences then, just easier to punish.

Which i totally agree with.

[Dizeee]

petergukM500 said:

So no new offences then, just easier to punish.

Which i totally agree with.

Quite possibly yes - but again it all depends on what these tickets actually are / say. Is it one ticket for DWDCA that is supposed to cover all aspects, or are they different tickets for each behaviour?

The fact that various types of behaviour have been identified, such as pushing in to queues, lane hogging etc would mean a blanket response by officers upon witnessing them, that of an endorsable ticket.

I've yet to hear however from any traffic officer who has any knowledge or experience or even training on this elusive ticket.

[anonymous-user]

Sorry Dizeee I don't want some kind of multi page argument with you but you keep making reference to this system not existing or working.
How is this so when its being reported across every type of media ( TV, Radio, Newspaper and Internet) in the country today in headline form that the changes in enforcement come into force today, I have also supplied you with a quote today where the Acting Chief Inspector of the road policing unit for Hampshire police clearly states his recognition of both the new system and it's impact on his officers in their duty.
Please explain why you think this is not real, workable or enforceable from today?

[agtlaw]

No new offences have been created. Powers of punishment have been varied.

[covboy]

Can they not also include drivers who finally manage to indicate – halfway through their manoeuvre !

[Dizeee]

NorfolkInClue1 said:

Please explain why you think this is not real, workable or enforceable from today?

Because, for at LEAST the Met area, and no doubt numerous others, there are NO paper tickets that have been created or printed. There are also no software updates for PDA, therefore, it is physically impossible to issue someone with a ticket for DWDCA until that is rectified. In addition, there is no guidelines for officers on how and when to issue said tickets, plus, no idea from anyone when they will even come into existance. Questions asked about when they will appear are met with the usual laughs, looking at the sky in hope and general acceptance that while there may be exciting new fines to issue, they have not physically come into creation yet. They may have done in Isle of White and Hampshire, so that's great, but I am still yet to see any of the Bib on here say they have seen / are aware of these new tickets.

It goes further than that - the phone ticket increase, the insurance increase, all the increases for lower end fines like no tax disc or no MOT, all of these are still set at the previous fine limits on officers PDA's, there has been and there is no info about any software updates in the pipeline.

Its like the hot water tap in the shower, the tap may have been turned today but no hot water will appear for quite some time in many area's.

[Randy Winkman]

agtlaw said:

No new offences have been created. Powers of punishment have been varied.

And with regard to hogging the middle lane, I can't see how it will mean anything. What are the police actually supposed to do somebody for? I'd like to think that I never do it, but if I was pulled up for it, I'd say "What are you actually prosecuting me for, the "style" of my driving?"