MLM fines come into place today

[Louis Balfour]

Armchair_Expert said:

Hardly any, it is ignored pretty much across the board and accepted as the current state of poor competence on our roads.

Driving standards generally have worsened a great deal. In summary it's the "me first, I will drive as I see fit" attitude.

[Armchair_Expert]

I think they have always been poor, but now, just diabolical.

It is the pure ignorance across the board. I see it on my pushbike constantly and end up compensating and correcting everyone else's mistakes before they have even committed them. Constantly pulled out in front of when going round roundabouts, pulled out in front of when going past a T junction, then get all the abuse that it was my fault for "cycling too fast" at 20mph in a 30mph, sandwiched in when going through keep left bollards as cars overtake then slam on the brakes when they realize they have cocked up. Cretins everywhere.

Then get the headlight flash and fist shake from the ignoramus brigade who do 40mph in the 30's and 40mph in the nationals. Motorways and DC's full of traffic in lanes 3 and 4, while 1 and 2 are empty.

I am just thankful that the only miles I do are for leisure, when I want to.

[Louis Balfour]

Armchair_Expert said:

I think they have always been poor, but now, just diabolical.

It is the pure ignorance across the board. I see it on my pushbike constantly and end up compensating and correcting everyone else's mistakes before they have even committed them. Constantly pulled out in front of when going round roundabouts, pulled out in front of when going past a T junction, then get all the abuse that it was my fault for "cycling too fast" at 20mph in a 30mph, sandwiched in when going through keep left bollards as cars overtake then slam on the brakes when they realize they have cocked up. Cretins everywhere.

Then get the headlight flash and fist shake from the ignoramus brigade who do 40mph in the 30's and 40mph in the nationals. Motorways and DC's full of traffic in lanes 3 and 4, while 1 and 2 are empty.

I am just thankful that the only miles I do are for leisure, when I want to.

Lane discipline is a biggy, but two things that seem much worse of late:

1. Pulling out to overtake on the motorway, regardless of whether faster traffic is approaching from the rear.

2. Not giving way when parked cars are on their side of the carriageway. Young and old, they are determined to push through until they have to stop to judge the 1" gap is between side mirrors. Heaven forbid that they are going downhill too. Downhill momentum trumps all.

[bigothunter]

Louis Balfour said:

Armchair_Expert said:

Hardly any, it is ignored pretty much across the board and accepted as the current state of poor competence on our roads.

Driving standards generally have worsened a great deal. In summary it's the "me first, I will drive as I see fit" attitude.

Authorities are not bothered about MLMs. And with so much emphasis on reducing speed, their poor driving is being inadvertently encouraged.

Accepting MLMs may be the solution with 'each side passing' allowed like some urban freeways in US. Then reduce motorway speed limit to 60 or even 50mph for safety reasons.

A miserable prospect but entirely plausible given today's trends

[Louis Balfour]

bigothunter said:

Louis Balfour said:

Armchair_Expert said:

Hardly any, it is ignored pretty much across the board and accepted as the current state of poor competence on our roads.

Driving standards generally have worsened a great deal. In summary it's the "me first, I will drive as I see fit" attitude.

Authorities are not bothered about MLMs. And with so much emphasis on reducing speed, their poor driving is being inadvertently encouraged.

Accepting MLMs may be the solution with 'each side passing' allowed like some urban freeways in US. Then reduce motorway speed limit to 60 or even 50mph for safety reasons.

A miserable prospect but entirely plausible given today's trends

I never used to pass on the left, but in the past couple of years I have done it a few times. This has always been when a solitary car has been in the right-most lane of a dual carriageway / motorway at 10 or so mph below the limit.

[scorcher]

I seen someone pulled today after getting a couple of headlight flashes from a plain 5 series and then gesticulating in his rear view mirror at the copper. I’d already spotted it was a plain car so had slowed my progress a bit. Bet he wished he had moved into lane 1 now.

[Tommo87]

scorcher said:

I seen someone pulled today after getting a couple of headlight flashes from a plain 5 series and then gesticulating in his rear view mirror at the copper. I’d already spotted it was a plain car so had slowed my progress a bit. Bet he wished he had moved into lane 1 now.

Good news though.

[Grrbang]

A few years ago I just decided to stay in lane to pass MLMs whenever it’s obviously the safest option and at least arguably within the guidance in the HC. Passing on the left outside the situations permitted in the HC is not an offence in itself - the police would need to consider it careless driving, so I make sure I don’t do it carelessly and that it’s as close as possible to the guidance.

Never had a safety issue or a legal issue with this. Worth noting that my area has a hard shoulder to escape to if the MLM pulls left without being aware of me. If no hard shoulder, passing on the left may not be the safest option.

[BertBert]

I habitually overtake on the left. I don't dive left to go by, but just return to the left and keep going. If I'm in lane 1 and something tells me the situation didn't feel safe I'll go out to three for the overtake and back. But I mostly go by on the left.

I may get into trouble for it with plug at some point, but I'm not that bothered.

[sgtbash]

BertBert said:

I habitually overtake on the left. I don't dive left to go by, but just return to the left and keep going. If I'm in lane 1 and something tells me the situation didn't feel safe I'll go out to three for the overtake and back. But I mostly go by on the left.

I may get into trouble for it with plug at some point, but I'm not that bothered.

Same here

[jondude]

I think a lot of it (lower standards of driving) is down to we never thinking (as opposed to the US) that every man and his dog would own a car. Go to the US and the wide roads, ample parking etc just make it so much easier to drive. (Sure, not like this everywhere there but you can feel they built the roads with some forward thinking about their use)

A simple but serious problem we have in the UK is so many of our roads and junctions appear made with the old Hillman Imp being seen as the largest car to be made. It is nigh on impossible not to cut the corner in a modern car, indeed most SUVs have to wait before turning into side roads to let others out as there is no room to sweep by.

So what then happens is they don't wait, they claim their right of way and it all goes pear shaped.

And mini-roundabouts again built at a size even cyclists struggle to go round without clipping. Then they often have two mini roundabouts within 20 yards of each other!!

Accordingly, it seems to me the masses are trying to adjust the HC to the ever prevalent 'me, me me' attitude. People pulling out from side roads (the old 'think bike' scenario) is so expected now it is a shock when they do not and more and more drivers get angry and abusive when you do not stop to let them out. I honestly do try to do this when I can but the onus is not upon me to so do, hence the abuse is all very perplexing.

A lot is down to the frustration of not being able to handle a large vehicle on our tiny roads, methinks.

[bigothunter]

BertBert said:

I habitually overtake on the left. I don't dive left to go by, but just return to the left and keep going. If I'm in lane 1 and something tells me the situation didn't feel safe I'll go out to three for the overtake and back. But I mostly go by on the left.

So do I especially when towing...

But our actions accommodate and almost condone poor driving by MLMs. There are implications such as formally legalising 'each side passing' and lower speed limits.

The morons are winning

[Chris32345]

Louis Balfour said:

Lane discipline is a biggy, but two things that seem much worse of late:

1. Pulling out to overtake on the motorway, regardless of whether faster traffic is approaching from the rear.

2. Not giving way when parked cars are on their side of the carriageway. Young and old, they are determined to push through until they have to stop to judge the 1" gap is between side mirrors. Heaven forbid that they are going downhill too. Downhill momentum trumps all.

3 people sat in the overtaking lane a mile before the hgv they are overtaking leaving those driving correctly to have to wait for them all to pass to be able to pull out

[Markgenesis]

BertBert said:

I habitually overtake on the left. I don't dive left to go by, but just return to the left and keep going. If I'm in lane 1 and something tells me the situation didn't feel safe I'll go out to three for the overtake and back. But I mostly go by on the left.

I may get into trouble for it with plug at some point, but I'm not that bothered.

It's only classed as an undertake if you change lane, an undertake is the opposite of overtake, i.e, approach the MLM in lane two, move to lane one, pass then move back to lane two, that's what i've always understood anyway, i drive a 44T artic, MLM's doing 50 i just pass in lane one (on the limiter at 56) as i cant use lane three, i cant tailgate and flash them as that's classed as aggressive behavior and i'd get into bother, especially if it's a road captain with a dash cam.
Sometimes when i pass in lane one just out of kindness i give them a blast of the air horns just to let them know i'm there/wake them up.

[vonhosen]

Markgenesis said:

BertBert said:

I habitually overtake on the left. I don't dive left to go by, but just return to the left and keep going. If I'm in lane 1 and something tells me the situation didn't feel safe I'll go out to three for the overtake and back. But I mostly go by on the left.

I may get into trouble for it with plug at some point, but I'm not that bothered.

It's only classed as an undertake if you change lane, an undertake is the opposite of overtake, i.e, approach the MLM in lane two, move to lane one, pass then move back to lane two, that's what i've always understood anyway, i drive a 44T artic, MLM's doing 50 i just pass in lane one (on the limiter at 56) as i cant use lane three, i cant tailgate and flash them as that's classed as aggressive behavior and i'd get into bother, especially if it's a road captain with a dash cam.
Sometimes when i pass in lane one just out of kindness i give them a blast of the air horns just to let them know i'm there/wake them up.

That's not true.

An overtake/undertake is the act of passing. There is no requirement for any lane change for it to be so.

See Highway Code rule 268.

HC Rule 268 said:

268
Do not overtake on the left or move to a lane on your left to overtake. In congested conditions, where adjacent lanes of traffic are moving at similar speeds, traffic in left-hand lanes may sometimes be moving faster than traffic to the right. In these conditions you may keep up with the traffic in your lane even if this means passing traffic in the lane to your right. Do not weave in and out of lanes to overtake.

If a lane change were a requirement for there to be an overtake/undertake it wouldn't be worded so.

[talksthetorque]

vonhosen said:

Markgenesis said:

BertBert said:

I habitually overtake on the left. I don't dive left to go by, but just return to the left and keep going. If I'm in lane 1 and something tells me the situation didn't feel safe I'll go out to three for the overtake and back. But I mostly go by on the left.

I may get into trouble for it with plug at some point, but I'm not that bothered.

It's only classed as an undertake if you change lane, an undertake is the opposite of overtake, i.e, approach the MLM in lane two, move to lane one, pass then move back to lane two, that's what i've always understood anyway, i drive a 44T artic, MLM's doing 50 i just pass in lane one (on the limiter at 56) as i cant use lane three, i cant tailgate and flash them as that's classed as aggressive behavior and i'd get into bother, especially if it's a road captain with a dash cam.
Sometimes when i pass in lane one just out of kindness i give them a blast of the air horns just to let them know i'm there/wake them up.

That's not true.

An overtake/undertake is the act of passing. There is no requirement for any lane change for it to be so.

See Highway Code rule 268.

HC Rule 268 said:

268
Do not overtake on the left or move to a lane on your left to overtake. In congested conditions, where adjacent lanes of traffic are moving at similar speeds, traffic in left-hand lanes may sometimes be moving faster than traffic to the right. In these conditions you may keep up with the traffic in your lane even if this means passing traffic in the lane to your right. Do not weave in and out of lanes to overtake.

If a lane change were a requirement for there to be an overtake/undertake it wouldn't be worded so.

Define congested traffic. I would say that despite the speed limit being 70, if the middle lane was only doing 50 then it was congested.

[vonhosen]

talksthetorque said:

vonhosen said:

Markgenesis said:

BertBert said:

I habitually overtake on the left. I don't dive left to go by, but just return to the left and keep going. If I'm in lane 1 and something tells me the situation didn't feel safe I'll go out to three for the overtake and back. But I mostly go by on the left.

I may get into trouble for it with plug at some point, but I'm not that bothered.

It's only classed as an undertake if you change lane, an undertake is the opposite of overtake, i.e, approach the MLM in lane two, move to lane one, pass then move back to lane two, that's what i've always understood anyway, i drive a 44T artic, MLM's doing 50 i just pass in lane one (on the limiter at 56) as i cant use lane three, i cant tailgate and flash them as that's classed as aggressive behavior and i'd get into bother, especially if it's a road captain with a dash cam.
Sometimes when i pass in lane one just out of kindness i give them a blast of the air horns just to let them know i'm there/wake them up.

That's not true.

An overtake/undertake is the act of passing. There is no requirement for any lane change for it to be so.

See Highway Code rule 268.

HC Rule 268 said:

268
Do not overtake on the left or move to a lane on your left to overtake. In congested conditions, where adjacent lanes of traffic are moving at similar speeds, traffic in left-hand lanes may sometimes be moving faster than traffic to the right. In these conditions you may keep up with the traffic in your lane even if this means passing traffic in the lane to your right. Do not weave in and out of lanes to overtake.

If a lane change were a requirement for there to be an overtake/undertake it wouldn't be worded so.

Define congested traffic. I would say that despite the speed limit being 70, if the middle lane was only doing 50 then it was congested.

It's not up to me to define it.
It is what the Police decide, provided the CPS & court agree with them.

[talksthetorque]

vonhosen said:

talksthetorque said:

vonhosen said:

Markgenesis said:

BertBert said:

I habitually overtake on the left. I don't dive left to go by, but just return to the left and keep going. If I'm in lane 1 and something tells me the situation didn't feel safe I'll go out to three for the overtake and back. But I mostly go by on the left.

I may get into trouble for it with plug at some point, but I'm not that bothered.

It's only classed as an undertake if you change lane, an undertake is the opposite of overtake, i.e, approach the MLM in lane two, move to lane one, pass then move back to lane two, that's what i've always understood anyway, i drive a 44T artic, MLM's doing 50 i just pass in lane one (on the limiter at 56) as i cant use lane three, i cant tailgate and flash them as that's classed as aggressive behavior and i'd get into bother, especially if it's a road captain with a dash cam.
Sometimes when i pass in lane one just out of kindness i give them a blast of the air horns just to let them know i'm there/wake them up.

That's not true.

An overtake/undertake is the act of passing. There is no requirement for any lane change for it to be so.

See Highway Code rule 268.

HC Rule 268 said:

268
Do not overtake on the left or move to a lane on your left to overtake. In congested conditions, where adjacent lanes of traffic are moving at similar speeds, traffic in left-hand lanes may sometimes be moving faster than traffic to the right. In these conditions you may keep up with the traffic in your lane even if this means passing traffic in the lane to your right. Do not weave in and out of lanes to overtake.

If a lane change were a requirement for there to be an overtake/undertake it wouldn't be worded so.

Define congested traffic. I would say that despite the speed limit being 70, if the middle lane was only doing 50 then it was congested.

It's not up to me to define it.
It is what the Police decide, provided the CPS & court agree with them.

Exactly. There is no definition of congested.

[vonhosen]

talksthetorque said:

vonhosen said:

talksthetorque said:

vonhosen said:

Markgenesis said:

BertBert said:

I habitually overtake on the left. I don't dive left to go by, but just return to the left and keep going. If I'm in lane 1 and something tells me the situation didn't feel safe I'll go out to three for the overtake and back. But I mostly go by on the left.

I may get into trouble for it with plug at some point, but I'm not that bothered.

It's only classed as an undertake if you change lane, an undertake is the opposite of overtake, i.e, approach the MLM in lane two, move to lane one, pass then move back to lane two, that's what i've always understood anyway, i drive a 44T artic, MLM's doing 50 i just pass in lane one (on the limiter at 56) as i cant use lane three, i cant tailgate and flash them as that's classed as aggressive behavior and i'd get into bother, especially if it's a road captain with a dash cam.
Sometimes when i pass in lane one just out of kindness i give them a blast of the air horns just to let them know i'm there/wake them up.

That's not true.

An overtake/undertake is the act of passing. There is no requirement for any lane change for it to be so.

See Highway Code rule 268.

HC Rule 268 said:

268
Do not overtake on the left or move to a lane on your left to overtake. In congested conditions, where adjacent lanes of traffic are moving at similar speeds, traffic in left-hand lanes may sometimes be moving faster than traffic to the right. In these conditions you may keep up with the traffic in your lane even if this means passing traffic in the lane to your right. Do not weave in and out of lanes to overtake.

If a lane change were a requirement for there to be an overtake/undertake it wouldn't be worded so.

Define congested traffic. I would say that despite the speed limit being 70, if the middle lane was only doing 50 then it was congested.

It's not up to me to define it.
It is what the Police decide, provided the CPS & court agree with them.

Exactly. There is no definition of congested.

I haven't said otherwise.
Ultimately it doesn't matter what you or I think it is, it matters what the authorities consider it is.
Though if I were to have a stab at it (& considering dictionary definitions) I'd say volume of other traffic is more important than speed of other traffic, because they mention congested & speed as separate things in rule 268.
It could be congested at speeds of 70mph or indeed at speeds in excess of it.

Anyway, the more reserved & less extreme your actions are, the less likely you are to get in bother.

[Armchair_Expert]

vonhosen said:

I haven't said otherwise.
Ultimately it doesn't matter what you or I think it is, it matters what the authorities consider it is.
Though if I were to have a stab at it (& considering dictionary definitions) I'd say volume of other traffic is more important than speed of other traffic, because they mention congested & speed as separate things in rule 268.
It could be congested at speeds of 70mph or indeed at speeds in excess of it.

Anyway, the more reserved & less extreme your actions are, the less likely you are to get in bother.

I have to say I was going to mention all that which I have not quoted - passing on the left not advocated but at what threshold does it fit the definition of slower moving traffic etc.

We both know the " correct by the book answer" however we also know our actions will be measured by what is considered, what is careful and what is expected by a careful and competent driver.

I avoid undertakes generally, they feel wrong by virtue of how I have been trained, i.e respectful to others and also potential for catastrophe. That said, when you have an empty 6 lane motorway with a Hyundai doing 65 in lane 5 of 6, lanes 1 and 2 are the safest route.

Isn't it safety, then system?