MLM fines come into place today
Discussion
Armchair_Expert said:
vonhosen said:
I haven't said otherwise.
Ultimately it doesn't matter what you or I think it is, it matters what the authorities consider it is.
Though if I were to have a stab at it (& considering dictionary definitions) I'd say volume of other traffic is more important than speed of other traffic, because they mention congested & speed as separate things in rule 268.
It could be congested at speeds of 70mph or indeed at speeds in excess of it.
Anyway, the more reserved & less extreme your actions are, the less likely you are to get in bother.
I have to say I was going to mention all that which I have not quoted - passing on the left not advocated but at what threshold does it fit the definition of slower moving traffic etc.Ultimately it doesn't matter what you or I think it is, it matters what the authorities consider it is.
Though if I were to have a stab at it (& considering dictionary definitions) I'd say volume of other traffic is more important than speed of other traffic, because they mention congested & speed as separate things in rule 268.
It could be congested at speeds of 70mph or indeed at speeds in excess of it.
Anyway, the more reserved & less extreme your actions are, the less likely you are to get in bother.
We both know the " correct by the book answer" however we also know our actions will be measured by what is considered, what is careful and what is expected by a careful and competent driver.
I avoid undertakes generally, they feel wrong by virtue of how I have been trained, i.e respectful to others and also potential for catastrophe. That said, when you have an empty 6 lane motorway with a Hyundai doing 65 in lane 5 of 6, lanes 1 and 2 are the safest route.
Isn't it safety, then system?
It isn't a defined speed, it's when the authorities (all agree) say you are.
Again, the more reserved & less extreme the actions, the less likely you are to get in bother.
And in your example, of an empty motorway just me & the Hyundai, I'd pass in lane 6 & continue on my way.
vonhosen said:
It's like the question of at what speed are you filtering on two wheels between lanes of traffic on the motorway, or simply undertaking others?
It isn't a defined speed, it's when the authorities (all agree) say you are.
Again, the more reserved & less extreme the actions, the less likely you are to get in bother.
And in your example, of an empty motorway just me & the Hyundai, I'd pass in lane 6 & continue on my way.
Well that is the better answer on paper. I'll give you that It isn't a defined speed, it's when the authorities (all agree) say you are.
Again, the more reserved & less extreme the actions, the less likely you are to get in bother.
And in your example, of an empty motorway just me & the Hyundai, I'd pass in lane 6 & continue on my way.
In my head, I was approaching in lane 1, on a gradual left hand bend. The movement from 1 to 6 and back in again is by the book. The straighter line by not doing all that, with margin of safety included by default, is not by the book. But it is a straighter line. And would put you further away from the only hazard that exists.
?
vonhosen said:
It's like the question of at what speed are you filtering on two wheels between lanes of traffic on the motorway, or simply undertaking others?
It isn't a defined speed, it's when the authorities (all agree) say you are.
Exactly, at what point does a filter become dangerous? Subjective.It isn't a defined speed, it's when the authorities (all agree) say you are.
But, not something that would be done, in test conditions. I've forgotten - are you a rider?
vonhosen said:
It's like the question of at what speed are you filtering on two wheels between lanes of traffic on the motorway, or simply undertaking others?
It isn't a defined speed, it's when the authorities (all agree) say you are.
Again, the more reserved & less extreme the actions, the less likely you are to get in bother.
And in your example, of an empty motorway just me & the Hyundai, I'd pass in lane 6 & continue on my way.
You would put yourself and any passengers between a driver who isn't paying attention and the armco at 70mph, rather than having three empty lanes between you and the other car - just because the HC says so.It isn't a defined speed, it's when the authorities (all agree) say you are.
Again, the more reserved & less extreme the actions, the less likely you are to get in bother.
And in your example, of an empty motorway just me & the Hyundai, I'd pass in lane 6 & continue on my way.
I asked the question a while ago about this. IIRC the actual offence you would be prosecuted for undertaking is Inconsiderate Driving and the trafpol who commented on the thread said that they wouldn’t do anything about someone undertaking a MLM if the passer in the left was just basically continuing in their lane. To prosecute (or give a NIP) there would have to be other factors as well.
I’m like BertBert above, I undertake from time to time when I judge this to be safer than the alternative, but only when I am doing so by continuing in my established lane, not by changing lane to do it. Sometimes there’s a grey area when returning to the leftmost lane and being established in it, passing a MLM on the left, and then passing traffic further down the road on the right could be interpreted as weaving. In those situations I don’t do it and generally have a think to myself about justifying my actions to plod. If it’s marginal I don’t do it and don’t pass the MLM on the left until I’ve given myself a chance to be fully established in an inner lane. If there’s space to pass on the right I will always do so.
On the M25 the MLMs are endemic now at all times of day. Mostly sitting in lane 3 of a 4 lane road, causing bunching while people try to pass on the right. Or people sitting in the outside lane holding up faster traffic. On 2 lane dual carriageways around the SE you always come across someone sitting in the outer lane with literally nothing else on the road. In those situations I’ll approach in the inner lane and pass on the inner lane without hesitation. I’ve learned from experience that if you sit patiently behind them at a safe distance they simply will not move. I judge closing the gap or headlight flashing to encourage them to move over as more aggressive/dangerous than just passing on the left and continuing. They are the person doing the Inconsiderate Driving, not me.
Conversely on 2 lane dual carriageway major roads like the A12 you rarely see a MLM.
Basically lane awareness is shocking these days, passing on the left is often safer than any alternative (including bunching up and crossing 2 lanes to pass on the right). I always judge the manoeuvre in terms of defending it within the legislation to police. Where possible I pass on the right. If continuing in my lane and passing on the left is safer due to the inconsiderate driving by the MLM, then I do so. I never change lane to undertake - though there’s always a judgement call between returning to the leftmost lane and changing lane to pass on the left. I err on the side of safety in that regard so I can always have an attempt to justify it.
I’m like BertBert above, I undertake from time to time when I judge this to be safer than the alternative, but only when I am doing so by continuing in my established lane, not by changing lane to do it. Sometimes there’s a grey area when returning to the leftmost lane and being established in it, passing a MLM on the left, and then passing traffic further down the road on the right could be interpreted as weaving. In those situations I don’t do it and generally have a think to myself about justifying my actions to plod. If it’s marginal I don’t do it and don’t pass the MLM on the left until I’ve given myself a chance to be fully established in an inner lane. If there’s space to pass on the right I will always do so.
On the M25 the MLMs are endemic now at all times of day. Mostly sitting in lane 3 of a 4 lane road, causing bunching while people try to pass on the right. Or people sitting in the outside lane holding up faster traffic. On 2 lane dual carriageways around the SE you always come across someone sitting in the outer lane with literally nothing else on the road. In those situations I’ll approach in the inner lane and pass on the inner lane without hesitation. I’ve learned from experience that if you sit patiently behind them at a safe distance they simply will not move. I judge closing the gap or headlight flashing to encourage them to move over as more aggressive/dangerous than just passing on the left and continuing. They are the person doing the Inconsiderate Driving, not me.
Conversely on 2 lane dual carriageway major roads like the A12 you rarely see a MLM.
Basically lane awareness is shocking these days, passing on the left is often safer than any alternative (including bunching up and crossing 2 lanes to pass on the right). I always judge the manoeuvre in terms of defending it within the legislation to police. Where possible I pass on the right. If continuing in my lane and passing on the left is safer due to the inconsiderate driving by the MLM, then I do so. I never change lane to undertake - though there’s always a judgement call between returning to the leftmost lane and changing lane to pass on the left. I err on the side of safety in that regard so I can always have an attempt to justify it.
I had cause to drive on some motorways last week (M5, M4 and M25) I am lucky if I drive on a motorway more than 2/3 times a year (my nearest motorway stretch is nearly 100 miles away) and tbh was shocked at just how bad the MLM issue still is.
I (as above) spent a lot of time in the left lane just on cruise control at 70mph going past many, many people dawdling in lane 2 at 60/65mph.
There was one point where I came across a chap in lane 3 on the M4, he was doing 60mph, there was around 10 cars backed up behind him in lane 2 &3 waiting for him to pull over to go past, I just left the cruise control on in lane 1 and carried on past them all. I wasn’t going to sit and wait in an imaginary queue because some idiot doesn’t know lane discipline and would happily explain that to a Trafpol if pulled over for it.
I (as above) spent a lot of time in the left lane just on cruise control at 70mph going past many, many people dawdling in lane 2 at 60/65mph.
There was one point where I came across a chap in lane 3 on the M4, he was doing 60mph, there was around 10 cars backed up behind him in lane 2 &3 waiting for him to pull over to go past, I just left the cruise control on in lane 1 and carried on past them all. I wasn’t going to sit and wait in an imaginary queue because some idiot doesn’t know lane discipline and would happily explain that to a Trafpol if pulled over for it.
Armchair_Expert said:
vonhosen said:
It's like the question of at what speed are you filtering on two wheels between lanes of traffic on the motorway, or simply undertaking others?
It isn't a defined speed, it's when the authorities (all agree) say you are.
Exactly, at what point does a filter become dangerous? Subjective.It isn't a defined speed, it's when the authorities (all agree) say you are.
But, not something that would be done, in test conditions. I've forgotten - are you a rider?
For fun I prefer it to 4 wheels.
pingu393 said:
vonhosen said:
It's like the question of at what speed are you filtering on two wheels between lanes of traffic on the motorway, or simply undertaking others?
It isn't a defined speed, it's when the authorities (all agree) say you are.
Again, the more reserved & less extreme the actions, the less likely you are to get in bother.
And in your example, of an empty motorway just me & the Hyundai, I'd pass in lane 6 & continue on my way.
You would put yourself and any passengers between a driver who isn't paying attention and the armco at 70mph, rather than having three empty lanes between you and the other car - just because the HC says so.It isn't a defined speed, it's when the authorities (all agree) say you are.
Again, the more reserved & less extreme the actions, the less likely you are to get in bother.
And in your example, of an empty motorway just me & the Hyundai, I'd pass in lane 6 & continue on my way.
I'd monitor the threat all the time & if I wasn't happy with the risk it posed I'd not pass, if I was happy I would pass with a suitable differential.
I quite happily pass vehicles every day without any lanes of separation doing just that (monitoring & managing).
I don't limit my overtakes to only where I can maintain at least a full lane of separation from the overtaken vehicle.
I'm sure you do to.
vonhosen said:
pingu393 said:
vonhosen said:
It's like the question of at what speed are you filtering on two wheels between lanes of traffic on the motorway, or simply undertaking others?
It isn't a defined speed, it's when the authorities (all agree) say you are.
Again, the more reserved & less extreme the actions, the less likely you are to get in bother.
And in your example, of an empty motorway just me & the Hyundai, I'd pass in lane 6 & continue on my way.
You would put yourself and any passengers between a driver who isn't paying attention and the armco at 70mph, rather than having three empty lanes between you and the other car - just because the HC says so.It isn't a defined speed, it's when the authorities (all agree) say you are.
Again, the more reserved & less extreme the actions, the less likely you are to get in bother.
And in your example, of an empty motorway just me & the Hyundai, I'd pass in lane 6 & continue on my way.
I'd monitor the threat all the time & if I wasn't happy with the risk it posed I'd not pass, if I was happy I would pass with a suitable differential.
I quite happily pass vehicles every day without any lanes of separation doing just that (monitoring & managing).
I don't limit my overtakes to only where I can maintain at least a full lane of separation from the overtaken vehicle.
I'm sure you do to.
I do note that you would pass a car doing 60/65 "with a suitable differential". I take this to mean exceeding 70 in order to stay safe. Is disobeying some parts of the code to stay safe ok, but others aren't?
pingu393 said:
vonhosen said:
pingu393 said:
vonhosen said:
It's like the question of at what speed are you filtering on two wheels between lanes of traffic on the motorway, or simply undertaking others?
It isn't a defined speed, it's when the authorities (all agree) say you are.
Again, the more reserved & less extreme the actions, the less likely you are to get in bother.
And in your example, of an empty motorway just me & the Hyundai, I'd pass in lane 6 & continue on my way.
You would put yourself and any passengers between a driver who isn't paying attention and the armco at 70mph, rather than having three empty lanes between you and the other car - just because the HC says so.It isn't a defined speed, it's when the authorities (all agree) say you are.
Again, the more reserved & less extreme the actions, the less likely you are to get in bother.
And in your example, of an empty motorway just me & the Hyundai, I'd pass in lane 6 & continue on my way.
I'd monitor the threat all the time & if I wasn't happy with the risk it posed I'd not pass, if I was happy I would pass with a suitable differential.
I quite happily pass vehicles every day without any lanes of separation doing just that (monitoring & managing).
I don't limit my overtakes to only where I can maintain at least a full lane of separation from the overtaken vehicle.
I'm sure you do to.
I do note that you would pass a car doing 60/65 "with a suitable differential". I take this to mean exceeding 70 in order to stay safe. Is disobeying some parts of the code to stay safe ok, but others aren't?
2) I do however note what the code/law (as well as prosecution threshold) is & accept the potential consequence of going outside it if I ever do so.
3) As a general (but not exclusive) rule, I tend not to overtake on motorways unless I have, what I consider at the time for the circumstances, a suitable legal (& prosecution threshold) speed differential available to me.
4) I'm a pragmatist & get on with things whilst also being mindful of the potential consequences of my driving choices.
5) So far it's served me well. No course, FPNs, prosecutions, or getting hit by errant MLMs.
Edited by vonhosen on Tuesday 19th April 18:38
vonhosen said:
1) I've never said/claimed that I don't ever exceed speed limits, or that I drive according to the code at all times.
2) I do however note what the code/law (as well as prosecution threshold) is & accept the potential consequence of going outside it if I ever do so.
3) As a general (but not exclusive) rule, I tend not to overtake on motorways unless I have, what I consider at the time for the circumstances, a suitable legal (& prosecution threshold) speed differential available to me.
4) I'm a pragmatist & get on with things whilst also being mindful of the potential consequences of my driving choices.
5) So far it's served me well. No course, FPNs, prosecutions, or getting hit by errant MLMs.
Are you my twin brother? I could have written that. Para 5 would have been slightly different, but nothing since May 2000. 2) I do however note what the code/law (as well as prosecution threshold) is & accept the potential consequence of going outside it if I ever do so.
3) As a general (but not exclusive) rule, I tend not to overtake on motorways unless I have, what I consider at the time for the circumstances, a suitable legal (& prosecution threshold) speed differential available to me.
4) I'm a pragmatist & get on with things whilst also being mindful of the potential consequences of my driving choices.
5) So far it's served me well. No course, FPNs, prosecutions, or getting hit by errant MLMs.
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