Driving License records to go online
Discussion
Mermaid said:
Steffan said:
Interesting the level of detail that is required. I am doubtful whether the DVLA can actually ask for National Insurance numbers legally. What to the experts on PH think.
Worrying aspect if and when this data falls into the wrong hands, as it nod doubt will.Steffan said:
Evening Mermaid, that is precisely my concern in this. National insurance numbers are absolutely crucial to virtually all government identification of individuals. Taxation, benefits, pensions and every other form of government finiancial administration. These numbers are highly prized in the underword for nefarious ourposes. My concern is the risk to users of the site. The DVLA do not need that number they have a unique driving licence number which ought to suffice. Otherwise why have driving licences? Which are regularly used as formal identification. I do not think the DVLA have the right to require that information. I will be interested to see whether that is the case.
If all that was required to log in and view your licence were your postcode and driver number, someone could log in and view the information with nothing more than a copy of your driving licence. Employers, colleagues, rental companies, people who steal wallets, nosy friends etc etc etc can obtain these details. If this were all that was required to log in, the DVLA would be failing in their duty to protect your personal data.Bear in mind, if they're asking for your NI number, and it has to be entered correctly to gain access, they must be checking what you enter against information they already have about you.
tenpenceshort said:
If all that was required to log in and view your licence were your postcode and driver number, someone could log in and view the information with nothing more than a copy of your driving licence.
Errr... then the only information they would be able to see would be what is on the driving licence ... that they already have a copy of?Maybe I'm missing something obvious here.
Strangely Brown said:
Errr... then the only information they would be able to see would be what is on the driving licence ... that they already have a copy of?
Maybe I'm missing something obvious here.
Yes, the penalty points and other driver history.Maybe I'm missing something obvious here.
This whole line of attack about information sharing strikes me as bizarre. Why on earth wouldn't they be able to do it? Plus you're not forced to use the service.
Strangely Brown said:
tenpenceshort said:
If all that was required to log in and view your licence were your postcode and driver number, someone could log in and view the information with nothing more than a copy of your driving licence.
Errr... then the only information they would be able to see would be what is on the driving licence ... that they already have a copy of?Maybe I'm missing something obvious here.
You can go online to view your driving record, including endorsements and the like. The paper counterpart that traditionally carries these is being withdrawn.
trashbat said:
Strangely Brown said:
Errr... then the only information they would be able to see would be what is on the driving licence ... that they already have a copy of?
Maybe I'm missing something obvious here.
Yes, the penalty points and other driver history.Maybe I'm missing something obvious here.
Strangely Brown said:
I don't see a driver history section? I only see personal info, which is on the licence; categories, which are on the licence; and points/disqualifications. Why should current penalty points and/or disqualifications be secret? IMO they should be printed on the licence (like the old paper version). I have never really understood the point of the separate paper counterpart.
For one, points are private information. Do you want a prospective employer to find out - without your knowledge - that you've got 9 points, or had a driving ban (I don't know what shows up)?Secondly, it's two factor authentication. If I know your name and birthday, not hard, it looks like there's a reasonable chance I can guess your driving licence number, and thus access a lot of people's information in this way. It's slightly harder (although not sufficiently IMO) to get the accompanying NIN.
tenpenceshort said:
No it won't. There's no reason to share that information with them and to do so without permission would be unlawful.
Haha, I should have put a smiley at the end of my post.. I was being flippant!My records wont come up. I have just noticed my DOB is a year out. I'd call them up, but I'm going on hols to France in 10 days so I guess I'll leave it until I get back. I can see the hoops being lined up for me to jump through already.
Edited by andygo on Monday 21st July 10:47
Edited by andygo on Monday 21st July 10:47
tenpenceshort said:
Steffan said:
Evening Mermaid, that is precisely my concern in this. National insurance numbers are absolutely crucial to virtually all government identification of individuals. Taxation, benefits, pensions and every other form of government finiancial administration. These numbers are highly prized in the underword for nefarious ourposes. My concern is the risk to users of the site. The DVLA do not need that number they have a unique driving licence number which ought to suffice. Otherwise why have driving licences? Which are regularly used as formal identification. I do not think the DVLA have the right to require that information. I will be interested to see whether that is the case.
If all that was required to log in and view your licence were your postcode and driver number, someone could log in and view the information with nothing more than a copy of your driving licence. Employers, colleagues, rental companies, people who steal wallets, nosy friends etc etc etc can obtain these details. If this were all that was required to log in, the DVLA would be failing in their duty to protect your personal data.Bear in mind, if they're asking for your NI number, and it has to be entered correctly to gain access, they must be checking what you enter against information they already have about you.
The T&Cs suggest these databases are not linked and that comparing of notes between the government departments is not permitted without a citizen's consent.
Employers obviously have employees' NI numbers, and those with fleets will typically have a copy of employees' driving licences. There is plenty of scope to have one's consent granted to the government without one's knowledge.
Public sector databases are leaky buckets; the T&Cs of this new 'service' mix two big buckets by permitting HMRC/DWP/DVLA to share data.
The service is of very little practical use to a citizen - we have our driving licences, and present them on demand to employers/authorities. We, and those given access by ourselves, KNOW our driving history. There is no added benefit to this being accessible online - it's written on the paper in our pockets.
But those T&Cs are useful for government. HMRC is pursuing some very worrying methods of collection - like directly raiding citizens' bank accounts. Do you want this lot taking a look in your garage?
trashbat said:
Strangely Brown said:
I don't see a driver history section? I only see personal info, which is on the licence; categories, which are on the licence; and points/disqualifications. Why should current penalty points and/or disqualifications be secret? IMO they should be printed on the licence (like the old paper version). I have never really understood the point of the separate paper counterpart.
For one, points are private information. Do you want a prospective employer to find out - without your knowledge - that you've got 9 points, or had a driving ban (I don't know what shows up)?If you are applying for a job that does/may involve driving, then I would presume that the prospective employer would want to see your driving licence, or would ask the question anyway.
trashbat said:
Secondly, it's two factor authentication. If I know your name and birthday, not hard, it looks like there's a reasonable chance I can guess your driving licence number, and thus access a lot of people's information in this way. It's slightly harder (although not sufficiently IMO) to get the accompanying NIN.
No, I don't think you can guess someones driver number. You might be able to get a fair chunk of it but, in mine at least, there are padding characters that have nothing to do with either my name or DoB.It's not two-factor authentication. It uses three pieces of information but they are all "something you know". One-factor.
Strangely Brown said:
No, I don't think you can guess someones driver number. You might be able to get a fair chunk of it but, in mine at least, there are padding characters that have nothing to do with either my name or DoB.
It's not two-factor authentication. It uses three pieces of information but they are all "something you know". One-factor.
Most people know their NI number. Most people don't know their licence number.It's not two-factor authentication. It uses three pieces of information but they are all "something you know". One-factor.
As for the number, mine appears to be five chars of my surname, slightly jumbled birthday, my initials and then three unknown chars. Bits of that might be coincidence.
Edit: I checked and apparently that is the case. It means about 7000 possible combinations. Not hard to brute force.
Edited by trashbat on Monday 21st July 12:35
trashbat said:
Strangely Brown said:
No, I don't think you can guess someones driver number. You might be able to get a fair chunk of it but, in mine at least, there are padding characters that have nothing to do with either my name or DoB.
It's not two-factor authentication. It uses three pieces of information but they are all "something you know". One-factor.
Most people know their NI number. Most people don't know their licence number.It's not two-factor authentication. It uses three pieces of information but they are all "something you know". One-factor.
As for the number, mine appears to be five chars of my surname, slightly jumbled birthday, my initials and then three unknown chars. Bits of that might be coincidence.
Edit: I checked and apparently that is the case. It means about 7000 possible combinations. Not hard to brute force.
NOTE: I don't look forward to the future that the very existence of this "service" heralds. My concern is that we are heading for a world of "computer says no". The database will become the authority, regardless of accuracy. Actually, reading around, I think we might already be there.
Strangely Brown said:
But you still need the NI number and the Postcode, and then after you have all that you get to see no more information than you could by looking at the licence itself. I don't see your point. If a prospective employer asks to see your driving licence, are you going to refuse? What other way do you suggest access be granted?
NOTE: I don't look forward to the future that the very existence of this "service" heralds. My concern is that we are heading for a world of "computer says no". The database will become the authority, regardless of accuracy. Actually, reading around, I think we might already be there.
You don't appear to acknowledge that paper counterparts are being phased out. This isn't going to be a shiny new service without a purpose; it's going to become the way you can view and show your entitlements and endorsements. That being the case, there needs to be a secure way to make sure they comply with data protection laws- hence the requirements for that specific information.NOTE: I don't look forward to the future that the very existence of this "service" heralds. My concern is that we are heading for a world of "computer says no". The database will become the authority, regardless of accuracy. Actually, reading around, I think we might already be there.
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