Driving License records to go online

[mygoldfishbowl]

tenpenceshort said:

Strangely Brown said:

But you still need the NI number and the Postcode, and then after you have all that you get to see no more information than you could by looking at the licence itself. I don't see your point. If a prospective employer asks to see your driving licence, are you going to refuse? What other way do you suggest access be granted?

NOTE: I don't look forward to the future that the very existence of this "service" heralds. My concern is that we are heading for a world of "computer says no". The database will become the authority, regardless of accuracy. Actually, reading around, I think we might already be there.

You don't appear to acknowledge that paper counterparts are being phased out. This isn't going to be a shiny new service without a purpose; it's going to become the way you can view and show your entitlements and endorsements. That being the case, there needs to be a secure way to make sure they comply with data protection laws- hence the requirements for that specific information.

I have to admit I agree with Strangely Brown. I must be missing something also & personally can't see what difference the withdrawing of the paper counterpart makes. All people's categories are on the plastic part & I don't see why points/history can't also be added as well. Even if they are not added people receive confirmation of any points awarded & know exactly when & what they received them for.

Edit. There will be an alternative to the online service to view endorsements, there's always an alternative.

Edited by mygoldfishbowl on Monday 21st July 13:39

[Strangely Brown]

tenpenceshort said:

You don't appear to acknowledge that paper counterparts are being phased out. This isn't going to be a shiny new service without a purpose; it's going to become the way you can view and show your entitlements and endorsements. That being the case, there needs to be a secure way to make sure they comply with data protection laws- hence the requirements for that specific information.

I do acknowledge that the paper counterpart is being phased out and the reasoning behind it... hence my stated concern above.

[Strangely Brown]

mygoldfishbowl said:

All people's categories are on the plastic part & I don't see why points/history can't also be added as well.

The only thing that I can think of would be cost. Every time someone got nabbed by a camera they would have to get a new plastic licence. The argument would be that that is an unnecessary cost in both production and admin when it can be done with an online lookup. Of course, every police officer will need to have access to that data at the side of the road in order to be able to offer a fixed penalty. Without it, they cannot know if the FP would result in a ban and so must refer for summons.

As far as the public facing online service goes, I see no information in there that should be "secret". If a person has knowledge of Driver Number, NI Number and Postcode then they almost certainly already know your name, address and DoB. The category entitlements are shown on your licence so what is the big deal about points and disqualifications? I can't help thinking that people are worrying about the wrong thing. It's the move towards the database being the authority that concerns me.

I'll just check the computer...

[Steffan]

AudiPardner said:

tenpenceshort said:

Steffan said:

Evening Mermaid, that is precisely my concern in this. National insurance numbers are absolutely crucial to virtually all government identification of individuals. Taxation, benefits, pensions and every other form of government finiancial administration. These numbers are highly prized in the underword for nefarious ourposes. My concern is the risk to users of the site. The DVLA do not need that number they have a unique driving licence number which ought to suffice. Otherwise why have driving licences? Which are regularly used as formal identification. I do not think the DVLA have the right to require that information. I will be interested to see whether that is the case.

If all that was required to log in and view your licence were your postcode and driver number, someone could log in and view the information with nothing more than a copy of your driving licence. Employers, colleagues, rental companies, people who steal wallets, nosy friends etc etc etc can obtain these details. If this were all that was required to log in, the DVLA would be failing in their duty to protect your personal data.

Bear in mind, if they're asking for your NI number, and it has to be entered correctly to gain access, they must be checking what you enter against information they already have about you.

The DVLA has a database of cars and drivers. The HMRC and DWP have a database of citizens and incomes.

The T&Cs suggest these databases are not linked and that comparing of notes between the government departments is not permitted without a citizen's consent.

Employers obviously have employees' NI numbers, and those with fleets will typically have a copy of employees' driving licences. There is plenty of scope to have one's consent granted to the government without one's knowledge.

Public sector databases are leaky buckets; the T&Cs of this new 'service' mix two big buckets by permitting HMRC/DWP/DVLA to share data.

The service is of very little practical use to a citizen - we have our driving licences, and present them on demand to employers/authorities. We, and those given access by ourselves, KNOW our driving history. There is no added benefit to this being accessible online - it's written on the paper in our pockets.

But those T&Cs are useful for government. HMRC is pursuing some very worrying methods of collection - like directly raiding citizens' bank accounts. Do you want this lot taking a look in your garage?

Once agin reflecting my concerns in a rather better judged and argued style. Good post indeed. My concern in this is exactly as Mermaid suggested and AudiPartner has expounded at length. The risk to the public of massive fraud as a result of National insurance numbers being entered on yet another database with poor security are obvious IMO. I think this is actually unlawful and I wondered what others thought of the idea. I an very doubtful of this growing risk withyet more organisations all listing all your personal information. It is a really bad idea IMO.

[boxedin]

Easy way to have an photo ID and address tied to a Nat.Ins number without all that shouty stuff about a National Identity card going on.

[b0rk]

Steffan said:

Interesting the level of detail that is required. I am doubtful whether the DVLA can actually ask for National Insurance numbers legally. What to the experts on PH think.

You need to provide the DVLA with your NI number to apply for a provisional license or grant them the permissions to ask DWP for it so they are only asking for you to confirm a piece of data they already have.

DVLA also hold a copy of your passport or for foreign nationals identity card number. A core facet of DVLA granting licenses is to confirm your identity with DWP and HMRC prior to issuance otherwise you could keep applying for new licenses with fake details.

The current NI number check is a stop gap solution until the long term plan held by GDS to roll out a unified "identity assurance" service is ready for deployment.
https://identityassurance.blog.gov.uk/

[Steffan]

b0rk said:

Steffan said:

Interesting the level of detail that is required. I am doubtful whether the DVLA can actually ask for National Insurance numbers legally. What to the experts on PH think.

You need to provide the DVLA with your NI number to apply for a provisional license or grant them the permissions to ask DWP for it so they are only asking for you to confirm a piece of data they already have.

DVLA also hold a copy of your passport or for foreign nationals identity card number. A core facet of DVLA granting licenses is to confirm your identity with DWP and HMRC prior to issuance otherwise you could keep applying for new licenses with fake details.

The current NI number check is a stop gap solution until the long term plan held by GDS to roll out a unified "identity assurance" service is ready for deployment.
https://identityassurance.blog.gov.uk/

Not from me and millions of others they don't. Since I have had a licence for over 50 years the DVLA have never asked for my national Insurance number and so far as I know have ever had it. Nor am iInclined to give it to them to put on their database and then regret the unexpected loss of data that will occur when some bright spark decides to start selling the data.

I personally have one remaining piece of advice for all individualsin the UK. Never trust the government they will always let you down. The ability of civil servants to seriously regret the disaster that they have supervised in their job, keep all the money paid to them for being responsible for the tasks and avoid all responsibility for anything at all that goes wrong when they are in charge is legendary. I do not wsh to add to their statistics.

Can the DVLA lawfully require that information in processing a Licence application? I do wonder.

[b0rk]

Actually they do have and will have had for years since computerisation of records if for some reason you never moved house since gaining your license. I assume you have an old post 76 D33 style GB license rather than a EU paper license or EU photocard.

Alternatively you would have granted the DVLA the right to validate your identity upon changing your address from the early 80's onwards. DVLA apparently took this right automatically anyway as part of the centralisation and computerisation of records in the 70's.

Cross checking identity records has been core function of license modification for decades this is in part to reduce fraud. There is FOI request on this very matter on whatdotheyknow somewhere.

If you are concerned raise a FOI request regarding the new service and data sharing etc, it will be just a web viewer on top of an existing database. Fraud wise I'd be far more concerned about someone with direct access to the DVLA computers downloading the lot or DWP or HMRC plenty of previous leaks straight out of the datacentre before.

Anyway getting a copy of your NI number from HMRC in the post requires absolutely no validation they just need your name, date of birth and address. HMRC trusts that post never gets stolen ever.