45 mph national speed limit?

[Johnnytheboy]

Vipers said:

Cant say I have ever heard or seen an NSL in a built up area, those are either 30 or 40, am I missing something?

Milton Keynes.

[Vipers]

K

Johnnytheboy said:

Vipers said:

Cant say I have ever heard or seen an NSL in a built up area, those are either 30 or 40, am I missing something?

Milton Keynes.

Any more info please ? Genuinely interested as I have never seen one.

[Blakewater]

Vipers said:

K

Johnnytheboy said:

Vipers said:

Cant say I have ever heard or seen an NSL in a built up area, those are either 30 or 40, am I missing something?

Milton Keynes.

Any more info please ? Genuinely interested as I have never seen one.

Streetview please, out of curiosity. There were a few in Bolton up to about ten years ago but they're all 30mph or 40mph now.

[turbobloke]

45mph national limit - a pointless reduction in quality of life and economic output.

Figures from a place with no national speed limit on open roads, provided by a sgt in their traffic police who got the data from a gov't source with approval to send. The data covers a 3-year time period.

Spot the hazard density issues!

SPEED LIMIT	FATAL	SERIOUS	SLIGHT	DAMAGE ONLY	TOTAL
20	0	0	5	5	10
30	1	39	185	410	635
40	2	9	13	18	42
50/60	1	4	8	26	39
No Limit	5	50	103	149	307
TOTAL	9	102	314	608	1033

Removing NSL from some UK motorway stretches at appropriate times would be good.

Clue for location sleuths: 7 of the fatacs were bikers which (sadly) wouldn't be surprising anywhere but for MoP bikers it's pertinent here.

[Dr Jekyll]

turbobloke said:

45mph national limit - a pointless reduction in quality of life and economic output.

Figures from a place with no national speed limit on open roads, provided by a sgt in their traffic police who got the data from a gov't source with approval to send. The data covers a 3-year time period.

Spot the hazard density issues!

SPEED LIMIT	FATAL	SERIOUS	SLIGHT	DAMAGE ONLY	TOTAL
20	0	0	5	5	10
30	1	39	185	410	635
40	2	9	13	18	42
50/60	1	4	8	26	39
No Limit	5	50	103	149	307
TOTAL	9	102	314	608	1033

Removing NSL from some UK motorway stretches at appropriate times would be good.

Clue for location sleuths: 7 of the fatacs were bikers which (sadly) wouldn't be surprising anywhere but for MoP bikers it's pertinent here.

It would be interesting to see figures broken down into TT fortnight/normal times.

[turbobloke]

Dr Jekyll said:

turbobloke said:

45mph national limit - a pointless reduction in quality of life and economic output.

Figures from a place with no national speed limit on open roads, provided by a sgt in their traffic police who got the data from a gov't source with approval to send. The data covers a 3-year time period.

Spot the hazard density issues!

SPEED LIMIT	FATAL	SERIOUS	SLIGHT	DAMAGE ONLY	TOTAL
20	0	0	5	5	10
30	1	39	185	410	635
40	2	9	13	18	42
50/60	1	4	8	26	39
No Limit	5	50	103	149	307
TOTAL	9	102	314	608	1033

Removing NSL from some UK motorway stretches at appropriate times would be good.

Clue for location sleuths: 7 of the fatacs were bikers which (sadly) wouldn't be surprising anywhere but for MoP bikers it's pertinent here.

It would be interesting to see figures broken down into TT fortnight/normal times.

It would indeed. I don't think that what came through had that info but I'll check.

[trashbat]

Pointing out the obvious, I'm sure, but you need reference information like network distance and passenger miles travelled for each zone. And probably the rate of compliance with e.g. those 30 limits. And probably sample data that in the first place comes from somewhere that isn't (a) tiny and (b) somewhere people explicitly go because there are no speed limits.

[turbobloke]

trashbat said:

Pointing out the obvious, I'm sure, but you need reference information like network distance and passenger miles travelled for each zone. And probably the rate of compliance with e.g. those 30 limits. And probably sample data that in the first place comes from somewhere that isn't (a) tiny and (b) somewhere people explicitly go because there are no speed limits.

Also obvious - it's interesting data to have at hand not because there are no speed limits, but precisely because there are some roads with no speed limits which many other locations lack. Also because it contributes to any realisation needed that lower limits don't necessarily help.

[trashbat]

Well, their 20 limit seems to have worked great. Maybe they should do that to all their roads. Or maybe there's only one brief 20 limit on the whole island, I don't know.

[turbobloke]

trashbat said:

Well, their 20 limit seems to have worked great. Maybe they should do that to all their roads. Or maybe there's only one brief 20 limit on the whole island, I don't know.

It would take a lot to convince me that 20mph limits have any relevance apart from outside schools around arrival and departure times, alongside measures that ensure parents don't park on the zig-zags. The relevance is partial even then, since 20mph is potentially dangerous but lawful. Seeing the law and safety part company in the treatment of vehicle speed is one of the reasons why road casualties aren't lower even than they are, which is well below accidents in the home. Twiddling with limit reductions has little if anything to offer.

[Tyre Tread]

Pixelpeep said:

People drive to what speed they are comfortable at.

My old driving instructor used to say to me 'its a limit, not a target'

Drop back, wait for a good open stretch of road, drop down 2 gears, pass safely.

Ignore any commotion from recently over taken car. Move on with life

Fine unless you are 8 cars back and the other seven are happy to trundle along, nose to tail, at 35mph.

Finding somewhere to pass all 8 is a challenge. more so when as you eventually pass car no 4 and car number 3 decides that if its safe for you to go, he can go, and pulls out without taking account of your speed differential.

Happens to me on an almost daily basis so one learns to be prepared.

On one occasion I decided the best thing to do, as car number 3 (or whatever) had effectively baulked my overtake such that it was unlikely I'd be able to complete it safely in the space available, I moved into the space he had left in the nose to tail caterpillar.
He made such a meal of getting up to speed he was almost wiped out by the HGV that came around the corner as he was passing the leading car.

Its equally common for cars to accelerate as you begin the overtake. One of the reasons I got rid of the Jazz as my commuter car.

[turbobloke]

Tyre Tread said:

as you eventually pass car no 4 and car number 3 decides that if its safe for you to go, he can go, and pulls out without taking account of your speed differential.

Happens to me on an almost daily basis so one learns to be prepared.

Differential, variance, call it what you will, that's a major factor in road safety as per long-standing research e.g. Lave "speed limits designed to reduce the fatality rate should concentrate on reducing variance. This means taking action against slow drivers as well as fast ones."

Speed limits not so managed are almost pointless. Spitz reported that the 85th percentile speed of traffic increased less than 0.4 mph in forty zones where speed limits were raised in 10 cities. Raising the speed limit doesn't influence the speed selected by the vast majority of drivers who set their speed for reasons well beyond the arbitrary number on a pole (unless enforcement is prevalent, officer).

Dudek and Ulman found no significant changes in vehicle speeds at six suburban sites where speed limits were lowered by 10mph, lowering the limits was a waste of time, money and a diversion from higher priorities.

Parker looked at 98 sites where speed limit changes occurred by measuring free-flow speeds for 24-hour periods before the speed limit was altered and on the same day of the week one year later. Speeds were measured in the same way and simultaneously at comparison sites where speed limits were not altered to control for time-related variables other than a limit change. Raising or lowering the speed limit had little or no effect on free flowing speeds. Maximum speed changes up to 3 mph were observed at individual sites, but the changes in the mean and 85th percentile speeds were less than 1 mph and were not significantly different to control sites where the speed limits were unchanged.

Still, that's just data, mere objective evidence, road safety zealots know better by taking in oxygen and thinking of a lower number. Then you chat with road safety 'experts' and they don't even recognise the names or the research.

[Vipers]

Tyre Tread said:

He made such a meal of getting up to speed he was almost wiped out by the HGV that came around the corner as he was passing the leading car.

That sounds like he was overtaking where he shouldn't.

[Tyre Tread]

Vipers said:

Tyre Tread said:

He made such a meal of getting up to speed he was almost wiped out by the HGV that came around the corner as he was passing the leading car.

That sounds like he was overtaking where he shouldn't.

Not sure if that's an attempt to draw me into admitting I was overtaking where I shouldn't but...

He certainly shouldn't have been starting an overtake from where he was, with (IIRC) an i10 so no power and with a Superb about to begin passing him. His overtake was paaaaiiiinnnnnnfuuuulllly ssssslllllooooooooowwwww.

[Vipers]

.

Tyre Tread said:

Vipers said:

Tyre Tread said:

He made such a meal of getting up to speed he was almost wiped out by the HGV that came around the corner as he was passing the leading car.

That sounds like he was overtaking where he shouldn't.

Not sure if that's an attempt to draw me into admitting I was overtaking where I shouldn't but...

He certainly shouldn't have been starting an overtake from where he was, with (IIRC) an i10 so no power and with a Superb about to begin passing him. His overtake was paaaaiiiinnnnnnfuuuulllly ssssslllllooooooooowwwww.

My comment was squarely aimed at the vehicle you mentioned, not you.

[WD39]

Johnnytheboy said:

If you're going to talk bobbins, at least learn to quote properly, for the love of God.

Edited by Johnnytheboy on Wednesday 12th November 18:13

Is this better? As for the love of God, I'll pass this time.

[TransverseTight]

I was thinking today about why is it the speed that a lot of numpties drive at 45, not 40 or 50? It came into my mind when I was coming back up to the Midlands from Southampton towing a 10x6x5ft box trailer, completely full to the brim with the contents of a house I'd been renting while working away. Once on the A34 and, you won't believe this... once on the M40 I got a bit stuck behind you guess it... someone doing 45 (well 48 actually) On the M40 in rush hour! WTF. The X-TRail needed a bit of a run up to get back up from 45-55, so had to wait a few minutes for a big enough gap in traffic.

For once I actually drove 5 mph below the speed limit (60 when towing), was actually very relaxing, till I got stuck behind the 45 brigade again.

Call me mean, but if you can't do at least 60 on a major dual carriageway or motorway, you should not be driving. Guy on the M40 was a frickin danger to other road users.

On a compete off thread point... it was windy on the way down, trailer empty and used 3/4 of a tank to get there. Coming back it was full, so was the roof box and so was the boot. Only used 1/2 a tank. Didn't realise how much wind would affect the mpg when towing! So I'm now wondering, are all these people doing 45 because they found their mpg hits 75mpg or something? I guess it's still cheaper and quicker than the bus if you drive but if you are on a budget where fuel costs could tip you over the edge of the weekly spend, sticking to 45mph might just get you into top gear and be sipping at the tank. Think that's what I'll tell myself form now on, just to stop me going loopy. "Oh, look, some poor sod who can only just afford his fuel". I can then blame the government for high fuel duty and no feel so angry at the individual concerned.

Well, I'll try.

[Blakewater]

TransverseTight said:

I was thinking today about why is it the speed that a lot of numpties drive at 45, not 40 or 50? It came into my mind when I was coming back up to the Midlands from Southampton towing a 10x6x5ft box trailer, completely full to the brim with the contents of a house I'd been renting while working away. Once on the A34 and, you won't believe this... once on the M40 I got a bit stuck behind you guess it... someone doing 45 (well 48 actually) On the M40 in rush hour! WTF. The X-TRail needed a bit of a run up to get back up from 45-55, so had to wait a few minutes for a big enough gap in traffic.

For once I actually drove 5 mph below the speed limit (60 when towing), was actually very relaxing, till I got stuck behind the 45 brigade again.

Call me mean, but if you can't do at least 60 on a major dual carriageway or motorway, you should not be driving. Guy on the M40 was a frickin danger to other road users.

On a compete off thread point... it was windy on the way down, trailer empty and used 3/4 of a tank to get there. Coming back it was full, so was the roof box and so was the boot. Only used 1/2 a tank. Didn't realise how much wind would affect the mpg when towing! So I'm now wondering, are all these people doing 45 because they found their mpg hits 75mpg or something? I guess it's still cheaper and quicker than the bus if you drive but if you are on a budget where fuel costs could tip you over the edge of the weekly spend, sticking to 45mph might just get you into top gear and be sipping at the tank. Think that's what I'll tell myself form now on, just to stop me going loopy. "Oh, look, some poor sod who can only just afford his fuel". I can then blame the government for high fuel duty and no feel so angry at the individual concerned.

Well, I'll try.

I've come across a few people doing 45mph or so on the motorway recently. A young chap in a Renault Clio on a two lane section of the M65 who caused a lot of heavy braking, possibly the reason for his slowness was inexperience and lack of training in driving quickly. Then, last Saturday, a chap with a big white beard in a beige Nissan Almera on the M61, maybe failing faculties or he's never really increased his speed beyond what was perhaps more acceptable fifty years ago. I even encountered two lorries carrying separate halves of a prefab house at a fairly slow pace having to overtake a couple of 45mph ditherers, one of whom was nearly touching the bumper of the one in front for some reason.

I've read that when the 70mph speed limit for motorways was introduced the minimum speeds on motorways increased as people who thought the same 45mph trundle they were used to doing on ordinary roads was acceptable on the motorway actually wasn't, they were expected to go a lot faster.

A few locals complain about the M65 being a racetrack but it's actually worse for very slow drivers than very fast ones. It's one of those local motorways that barely qualify as motorways and is used by people commuting and going shopping who don't otherwise go near motorways and so don't appreciate what sort of speed and etiquette is necessary on them.

I think part of the problem is people just not realising they should be going faster and maybe being too afraid to because they've had no experience or training and, if challenged, they'll say their speed is right and everybody else is too fast.

[WD39]

Johnnytheboy said:

WD39 said:

AA999 said:

People who follow slower cars and get annoyed by it should buy faster cars

Yes, but those people should accept the fact that on that day, at that time, on that stretch of road, they will just have to drive slower for a while.

If you're going to talk bobbins,

Edited by Johnnytheboy on Wednesday 12th November 18:13

Bobbins?? on a sewing machine , surely

[Dammit]

turbobloke said:

Differential, variance, call it what you will, that's a major factor in road safety as per long-standing research e.g. Lave "speed limits designed to reduce the fatality rate should concentrate on reducing variance. This means taking action against slow drivers as well as fast ones."

Speed limits not so managed are almost pointless. Spitz reported that the 85th percentile speed of traffic increased less than 0.4 mph in forty zones where speed limits were raised in 10 cities. Raising the speed limit doesn't influence the speed selected by the vast majority of drivers who set their speed for reasons well beyond the arbitrary number on a pole (unless enforcement is prevalent, officer).

Dudek and Ulman found no significant changes in vehicle speeds at six suburban sites where speed limits were lowered by 10mph, lowering the limits was a waste of time, money and a diversion from higher priorities.

Parker looked at 98 sites where speed limit changes occurred by measuring free-flow speeds for 24-hour periods before the speed limit was altered and on the same day of the week one year later. Speeds were measured in the same way and simultaneously at comparison sites where speed limits were not altered to control for time-related variables other than a limit change. Raising or lowering the speed limit had little or no effect on free flowing speeds. Maximum speed changes up to 3 mph were observed at individual sites, but the changes in the mean and 85th percentile speeds were less than 1 mph and were not significantly different to control sites where the speed limits were unchanged.

Still, that's just data, mere objective evidence, road safety zealots know better by taking in oxygen and thinking of a lower number. Then you chat with road safety 'experts' and they don't even recognise the names or the research.

It's certainly data - but what is it evidence of, and what position does it support?

"Although that said you do draw a conclusion here which I'd challenge: Dudek and Ulman found no significant changes in vehicle speeds at six suburban sites where speed limits were lowered by 10mph, lowering the limits was a waste of time, money and a diversion from higher priorities."

Average speed in central London is 9mph, lowering the speed limit from 30mph to 20mph is unlikely to change this - but it might make the roads significantly more pleasant places to be. You need to include what the target is, rather than assuming it's to reduce average speed.

It could be a classic straw man - without the goal made explicit any conclusion on whether that goal was reached is impossible to validate.



At the moment it's just data, which whilst it is interesting needs some context to give it meaning.